FORUMula1.com

[al4x]

this would be the end of f1 for me, being a team supporter there would be no appeal! Common bmw, Renault, Honda, mercedes, toyota, get something ekse going!

[McLaren Fan]

From autosport.com:

F1 better with freedoms, says Alonso

By Jonathan Noble Sunday, October 19th 2008, 04:42 GMT

Formula One risks turning itself into a GP2-type single make series if there is too much standardisation of parts.

That is the view of former world champion Fernando Alonso, who believes that the sport is heading in the wrong direction by making the shift to standard parts - including an engine.

He thinks F1 was much better when there were totally open technical regulations – with a range of different engines, tyres and car concepts.

Speaking about what his ideal F1 would be, he said: "Going back to a few years ago. I think with the V10, and with two manufacturers for the tyres – everything was about maximum performance.

"Even when you had not a competitive car, you could arrive at one race and maybe the Michelins would be working very fine and you would be able to race. There are more changes of winners.

"Now with everything standard, all the races are won by the same cars. The fastest cars are always the fastest cars in any circuit and any condition, so it is a little bit more boring.

"And for the standard engine? I don't like it. But if it is necessary the team principals will say yes. If it is not, I don't see any point to run a standard engine because we have standard electronics, standard tyres, the aerodynamics give you a very narrow window to work in, and the engine we have now is quite standard because they give us the V-angle and the cc.

"So there is no more room to play. It (F1) will become like a GP2 category."

Discussions about standard parts have dominated paddock talk in China after the FIA announced plans to introduced a standard engine from 2010. It comes ahead of a crunch 'cost cuts' meeting in Geneva next Tuesday.

[McLaren Fan]

From autosport.com:

Dennis optimistic of cost cut solution

By Jonathan Noble Sunday, October 19th 2008, 06:28 GMT

McLaren boss Ron Dennis is hopeful that a series of proposals due to be put forward to FIA president Max Mosley next week will help address Formula One's cost issues.

Mosley has called a meeting with the Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA) for next Tuesday, where he plans to discuss ways to dramatically cut costs amid the world's financial crisis.

It comes just a few days after the FIA released shock plans for a standard engine to be used in F1 from 2010 - a move that could drive manufacturers away from the sport.

FOTA has held two meetings over the Chinese Grand Prix weekend to put together its ideas for cost cuts, with ratification on proposals believed to have been met during a get-together on Sunday morning that was labeled as 'very positive' by one team boss.

Although teams and manufacturers have refused to comment on what the proposals that will be presented to the FIA on Tuesday are, Dennis said he was hopeful that common ground could be reached with the FIA.

Speaking in the Shanghai paddock on Sunday morning, Dennis said: "We fully appreciate that there is a need to address the issues of cost and technology, and environment etc, but at the same time when you put on the list that manufacturers are in F1 to differentiate their products and their capabilities, that has to be taken into consideration too.

"Apart from those very obvious observations, it is not appropriate for us to speculate on how this is going to unfold. There is a very, very firm commitment from the teams that finds a good solution that addresses all of the problems for all the teams in F1. But that is going to require lots of compromise and moving towards the central ground.

"It was pretty historic yesterday and, if it unfolds consistently with the discussions that took place yesterday, then I am quite optimistic that we will move forward and address these problems in a professional, mature and adult way."

Although Mosley has invited all teams to attend next week's meeting, it is looking increasingly likely that FOTA chiefs Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo and Toyota team president John Howett will be the only ones attending, having received a mandate from other outfits to represent them.

This comes amid fears from the body that Mosley could try and split the unity that has been shown in FOTA so far to try and force through changes he would like to see happen.

Dennis said that the unity among teams, which has been so difficult to achieve in the past, was holding up well despite complicated issues like customer cars, standard engines and engine equalisation being areas where opinion could be split.

"We are strong and together, but we are not a threat," said Dennis. "We are looking at being constructive to F1, and we don't have any motive other than to address the issues we had six months ago and starting to emerge from a difficult economic situation that has yet to impact on F1."

And Dennis expressed frustration about Mosley's suggestion he needs to intervene with the sport's finances because team bosses are unable to sort the situation out themselves.

"I am a bit more outspoken because I am getting more and more frustrated with the perception that people have that individuals that run racing teams are foolish, they don't know what they are doing, they are not competent, they are not successful, and that - whether they are the athlete, the team owner or the manufacturer – that we do not have the competence to run our business. It is just not the case."

Fair enough, Ron, but please zip it. You know what happens when you speak out against the FIA and Ecclestone.

[Gaz]

a Ferrari engine in a Mclaren, or a Mercades engine in a Ferrari.

Imagine that..

then you realise how stupid this would be

[FerrariFan63]

I think that many people on this thread aren't prepared to consider the real issues that might be facing F1.

There are many comments saying that unrestrained engineering is the beating heart of F1. I think that few people would dispute this. But the world now faces an era where money may be in much shorter supply. There is an assumption that the manufacturers will be able to continue pouring money into F1 at the current rate, but I am not sure that is the case. If new car sales fall off a cliff, then car manufacturers could be going to the wall. Let alone leaving F1. Waffle on about the purity of F1 if you want, but how about considering the hypothetical situation where suddenly the huge amounts of money necessary to run F1 are no longer available. Like the housing market, the result could be a F1 crash. As teams leave, the value of staying in F1 decreases, and so on. What happens to F1 in a situation like this? Is anybody prepared to discuss this possibility or will the general fingers in ears "la la la" attitude continue?

It could be that Mosley is trying to turn F1 into something that could survive a manufacturer walkout. Rather than something that would immediately collapse.

[7UpJordan]

I think that many people on this thread aren't prepared to consider the real issues that might be facing F1.

There are many comments saying that unrestrained engineering is the beating heart of F1. I think that few people would dispute this. But the world now faces an era where money may be in much shorter supply. There is an assumption that the manufacturers will be able to continue pouring money into F1 at the current rate, but I am not sure that is the case. If new car sales fall off a cliff, then car manufacturers could be going to the wall. Let alone leaving F1. Waffle on about the purity of F1 if you want, but how about considering the hypothetical situation where suddenly the huge amounts of money necessary to run F1 are no longer available. Like the housing market, the result could be a F1 crash. As teams leave, the value of staying in F1 decreases, and so on. What happens to F1 in a situation like this? Is anybody prepared to discuss this possibility or will the general fingers in ears "la la la" attitude continue?

It could be that Mosley is trying to turn F1 into something that could survive a manufacturer walkout. Rather than something that would immediately collapse.

I agree, whilst I am not comfortable with the idea of everyone using the same engine, if it is required to keep F1 alive then I can cope as long as it doesn't ruin the show. In the modern financial climate we're all having to make sacrifices, I don't go out as much anymore and sometimes spend some evenings and weekends doing nothing but getting cooked up in my house, but it's saving me money. Even F1 may have to make a little sacrifice.

[Gaz]

its a really silly idea but i'm sure we'll find out more after tuesday

[McLaren Fan]

I think that many people on this thread aren't prepared to consider the real issues that might be facing F1.

There are many comments saying that unrestrained engineering is the beating heart of F1. I think that few people would dispute this. But the world now faces an era where money may be in much shorter supply. There is an assumption that the manufacturers will be able to continue pouring money into F1 at the current rate, but I am not sure that is the case. If new car sales fall off a cliff, then car manufacturers could be going to the wall. Let alone leaving F1. Waffle on about the purity of F1 if you want, but how about considering the hypothetical situation where suddenly the huge amounts of money necessary to run F1 are no longer available. Like the housing market, the result could be a F1 crash. As teams leave, the value of staying in F1 decreases, and so on. What happens to F1 in a situation like this? Is anybody prepared to discuss this possibility or will the general fingers in ears "la la la" attitude continue?

It could be that Mosley is trying to turn F1 into something that could survive a manufacturer walkout. Rather than something that would immediately collapse.

There are many other ways in which Formula One could save a lot of money without having to resort to such stupid measures. Two I don't see tightening their belts are the FIA and Ecclestone.

[Gaz]

I think that many people on this thread aren't prepared to consider the real issues that might be facing F1.

There are many comments saying that unrestrained engineering is the beating heart of F1. I think that few people would dispute this. But the world now faces an era where money may be in much shorter supply. There is an assumption that the manufacturers will be able to continue pouring money into F1 at the current rate, but I am not sure that is the case. If new car sales fall off a cliff, then car manufacturers could be going to the wall. Let alone leaving F1. Waffle on about the purity of F1 if you want, but how about considering the hypothetical situation where suddenly the huge amounts of money necessary to run F1 are no longer available. Like the housing market, the result could be a F1 crash. As teams leave, the value of staying in F1 decreases, and so on. What happens to F1 in a situation like this? Is anybody prepared to discuss this possibility or will the general fingers in ears "la la la" attitude continue?

It could be that Mosley is trying to turn F1 into something that could survive a manufacturer walkout. Rather than something that would immediately collapse.

There are many other ways in which Formula One could save a lot of money without having to resort to such stupid measures. Two I don't see tightening their belts are the FIA and Ecclestone.

Yep and i have the feeling there making that the situation is worse than it is.

[f1maniac95]

I agree with Alonso that F1 needs to keep its freedom and stop trying to make standardised parts.

[FerrariFan63]

There are many other ways in which Formula One could save a lot of money without having to resort to such stupid measures. Two I don't see tightening their belts are the FIA and Ecclestone.

So would you say that if much more of the television money was routed to the teams, then this would help them save money and be more profitable. Or, would this extra money just result in more spending? I'm taking a devil's advocate approach here, but a standardised engine could be an efficient way of routing money to the teams, particularly in times of economic stress, without just encouraging even more profligate spending. If necessary, perhaps the engines and drivetrains could be given to the teams for free. Less spending on engines and drivetrains may just free up more money to be spent elsewhere, but with fewer places to spend it, the competitive advantage of spending more money becomes smaller. And that latter point is imho vitally important. You can never stop teams and manufacturers spending money, unless the money doesn't get them an advantage.

A way of reducing costs for teams would be to make it necessary that at the end of each year, every team has to have full disclosure of all their designs for that year's car. There would still be an advantage to spending £££££££££ on research, but lesser funded teams could be more competitive, perhaps to the point where a great driver can still make a difference. The same could be applied to engines. And in theory technology would progress faster, with every team being able to build on the inventions and discoveries of other teams.

[texasmr2]

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[FerrariFan63]

The teams and manufacturers are "violently opposed" to this proposal.

So, is a standard engine and drivetrain for formula one something that Mosley really wants. Or is this just a negotiating tactic. I.e. Mosley proposes it so that the teams then come to a "compromise", very similar to what Mosley really wanted from the start.

Though, I think Mosley does not want the current situation where the manufacturers are crucial for F1. It gives them too much power.

[Martin]

The teams and manufacturers are "violently opposed" to this proposal.

So, is a standard engine and drivetrain for formula one something that Mosley really wants. Or is this just a negotiating tactic. I.e. Mosley proposes it so that the teams then come to a "compromise", very similar to what Mosley really wanted from the start.

Though, I think Mosley does not want the current situation where the manufacturers are crucial for F1. It gives them too much power.

A lot of good points made on this thread. I agree that FIA should be concerned about the power of manufacturers, although I think MMs main concern is that the manufacturers could undermine his power base.
I have suggested a number of ways that big money could be saved whilst still allowing teams to develop their own car - which is what F1 is about, and is what makes it unique.

[KyrosV]

budget cap... Simple as