FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

Discuss the sport you love with other motorsport fans

Formula One related discussion.
User avatar
By McLaren Fan
#71535
Yes, he probably was trying to slip up the side to keep as close as possible and his execution of it was all very poor. But it was his best option. He had run so wide that if he was to try to go round the corner properly, Raikkonen would have been able to pass him if he had not first made contact with him.

Raikkonen was far enough behind, so I think things would have been okay. If your view - that Massa was worried about Raikkonen passing him - means Massa is still in the wrong, however.

Why? Kovalainen tried to pull off a half-hearted attempt at passing Webber at Spa, subsequently causing an avoidable accident and putting Webber down the field with little chance of a decent result. He got a drive-through penalty. So, why should Massa's have been any greater than that? The only time that a greater penalty has been applied for such a result is when those responsible have not been able to finish the race, the penalty being a ten-place grid drop (see Hamilton at Montreal and Nakajima at Melbourne). The Massa-Bourdais incident was not worthy of a penalty in either direction.

The Massa-Hamilton incident was much worse than Kovalainen's botched attempt to overtake Webber. Massa not only out-braked himself, but preceded to take a cross-country drive over the grass and punted out his championship rival either to avoid his teammate passing him or to lose less time.
User avatar
By McLaren Fan
#71538
It's also worth saying that after today's display of driving from Massa and Alonso's opening lap in Singapore, to name but two incidents, the vitriol meted out to Hamilton and his driving has been proven completely unfair.
User avatar
By KyrosV
#71540
Im getting sick of all this lewis sympathy,

If I was a mclaren supporter, I would be so pissed of with him right now that he hasnt become a 2 times champion by Monza. Mclaren have been the most competative theyve been in 10 years and only been :censored: about by a rookie with a huge head! the mistake he made today at the start was so amatuerish, foolish and desperate it was laughable. he only needed 3rd place and its all still good for the next 2 races. Hes lucky he lost 2 points in his lead today.

watch out people, he isnt the star you think he is. just a rookie in a good car :thumbdown:
User avatar
By McLaren Fan
#71542
Im getting sick of all this lewis sympathy,

If I was a mclaren supporter, I would be so pissed of with him right now that he hasnt become a 2 times champion by Monza. Mclaren have been the most competative theyve been in 10 and only been :censored: about by a rookie with a huge head! the mistake he made today at the start was so amatuerish, foolish and desperate it was laughable. he only needed 3rd place and its all still good for the next 2 races. Hes lucky he lost 2 points in his lead today.

watch out people, he isnt the star you think he is. just a rookie in a good car :thumbdown:

Only half-true, I'm afraid. There's no doubt Hamilton botched up his title bid last season and has made some embarrassing gaffes this season, but he has also shown a lot of brilliance as well. It's also difficult to remember that he is only 23 and in his second season of Formula One. He'll learn the hard way, and at McLaren's expense. :crying:
User avatar
By Denthúl
#71543
His options were:

- Do what he did.
- Carry on going, thus cutting the chicane, and risk getting a penalty.
- Slow down and try to take the corner properly, probably causing an accident with Raikkonen who was quite close when Massa started to turn in.
- Stop and wait for all the cars to go past, losing a lot of positions in the process.

I do not doubt that hitting Lewis was not a deliberate act from Massa. He simply chose the option that would likely lose him the least places and the least time and, unfortunately, couldn't quite manage to keep his car away from Lewis'.

Piffle.


Oh, of course. Because Massa is now the new "villain" of Formula 1 (at least according to the majority of McLaren and Hamilton fans I encounter in my day-to-day business), it is absolutely inconceivable that he simply caughy him by accident. My mistake... :rolleyes:

Look. He took the option that he thought would cost him the least, just as Hamilton did in Spa. Hamilton could have backed off and gone around the corner properly there, but he didn't. Or is it completely different because he's driving a silver car and can, so I'm told, do little wrong?

If you seriously think that Massa deliberately tried to take Hamilton out of the race, perhaps I respect you far more than I should.



I seriously think you are an idiot.
Massa is not the villain, the FIA are. i do not dislike any driver in particular. They are there to race and to overtake and naturally incidents will occur. What Massa did today was out of hand. In my opinion he chose to drive into lewis. That is unacceptable and the punishment should have been more severe. For a start, Massa should have been forced to give up his position to Lewis like Lewis had to in Spa. (Afterall Massa gained a position by cutting the corner).

What i want to know is:
**** Which option did he choose to take? All you have said is "do what he did". Which is pretty much take lewis out.


"Do what he did" is simply to try to drive along the kerb/gravel so as not to lose time to Hamilton, subsequently tagging Hamilton because he was not able to execute the move he had planned.

You can think I'm an idiot all that you like, I don't particularly care to be honest. It didn't even look like he tried to drive in to Lewis. Furthermore, having watched Massa over the years, that is not a part of his character. With Schumacher, you had a guy who was prepared to do such things and it was clear to tell. With Massa, he has a lot of respect for his title rivals and is not the kind of guy to do something like that. In addition, Massa had far too much to lose to try such a move. The likelihood of his car suffering suspension damage if he'd actually driven in to Hamilton like you suggest was far too great for him to take the risk as it would put himself and Hamilton out of the race and leave him with a defecit of seven points but now with only two races to go.

It was a silly piece of driving, but nothing more.

Yes, he probably was trying to slip up the side to keep as close as possible and his execution of it was all very poor. But it was his best option. He had run so wide that if he was to try to go round the corner properly, Raikkonen would have been able to pass him if he had not first made contact with him.

Raikkonen was far enough behind, so I think things would have been okay. If your view - that Massa was worried about Raikkonen passing him - means Massa is still in the wrong, however.


I did not say that it wasn't. :)

Why? Kovalainen tried to pull off a half-hearted attempt at passing Webber at Spa, subsequently causing an avoidable accident and putting Webber down the field with little chance of a decent result. He got a drive-through penalty. So, why should Massa's have been any greater than that? The only time that a greater penalty has been applied for such a result is when those responsible have not been able to finish the race, the penalty being a ten-place grid drop (see Hamilton at Montreal and Nakajima at Melbourne). The Massa-Bourdais incident was not worthy of a penalty in either direction.

The Massa-Hamilton incident was much worse than Kovalainen's botched attempt to overtake Webber. Massa not only out-braked himself, but preceded to take a cross-country drive over the grass and punted out his championship rival either to avoid his teammate passing him or to lose less time.
[/quote]

I disagree. Massa's move had a greater potential for success than Kovalainen's which, in all honesty, could not possibly have worked. It was careless, for he simply spent the entire straight uncertain about it and then just stuck his car out there in an awkward position that would yield no results. It was still silly and he should not have gone around the way he did, but I don't think it warrants anything more than a drive-through penalty.

It's also worth saying that after today's display of driving from Massa and Alonso's opening lap in Singapore, to name but two incidents, the vitriol meted out to Hamilton and his driving has been proven completely unfair.


Are you talking about the Spa controversy or what Kubica said about him being dangerous?
User avatar
By McLaren Fan
#71544
I disagree. Massa's move had a greater potential for success than Kovalainen's which, in all honesty, could not possibly have worked. It was careless, for he simply spent the entire straight uncertain about it and then just stuck his car out there in an awkward position that would yield no results. It was still silly and he should not have gone around the way he did, but I don't think it warrants anything more than a drive-through penalty.

It had no chance of working. Massa went far too wide into the corner and Hamilton had the inside of the corner. At best, the size of the space available was half the width of the Ferrari.

It's also worth saying that after today's display of driving from Massa and Alonso's opening lap in Singapore, to name but two incidents, the vitriol meted out to Hamilton and his driving has been proven completely unfair.


Are you talking about the Spa controversy or what Kubica said about him being dangerous?

Well, the Spa incident principally, but Massa showed that he just as aggressive as Hamilton.
By Brazzy23
#71545
Im getting sick of all this lewis sympathy,

If I was a mclaren supporter, I would be so pissed of with him right now that he hasnt become a 2 times champion by Monza. Mclaren have been the most competative theyve been in 10 years and only been :censored: about by a rookie with a huge head! the mistake he made today at the start was so amatuerish, foolish and desperate it was laughable. he only needed 3rd place and its all still good for the next 2 races. Hes lucky he lost 2 points in his lead today.

watch out people, he isnt the star you think he is. just a rookie in a good car :thumbdown:


If lewis had locked up in turn one it would have been an awesome move. Drivers make mistakes. I admit he does annoy the hell out of me when his moves don't come off but that is part of the reason i love him, he isn't afraid to take a risk. F1 would be better off with more drivers like him. I'm fed up of F1's overtaking being done in the pits.

Also If Lewis is a rookie then who would you consider world class?
Mate, just remember that Senna is the best racer to have ever lived and he made much more ambitious moves than Lewis. Passion is the reason we love racers. One other thing, if the McLaren is so good then why the hell is Heiki so far behind Lewis when Lewis is an "amateur". I think by the fact Lewis obtained the same number of points as Alonso last year is enough evidence to prove his skill.
By Brazzy23
#71546
"Do what he did" is simply to try to drive along the kerb/gravel so as not to lose time to Hamilton, subsequently tagging Hamilton because he was not able to execute the move he had planned.

You can think I'm an idiot all that you like, I don't particularly care to be honest. It didn't even look like he tried to drive in to Lewis. Furthermore, having watched Massa over the years, that is not a part of his character. With Schumacher, you had a guy who was prepared to do such things and it was clear to tell. With Massa, he has a lot of respect for his title rivals and is not the kind of guy to do something like that. In addition, Massa had far too much to lose to try such a move. The likelihood of his car suffering suspension damage if he'd actually driven in to Hamilton like you suggest was far too great for him to take the risk as it would put himself and Hamilton out of the race and leave him with a defecit of seven points but now with only two races to go.

It was a silly piece of driving, but nothing more.


I think we both know Massa is a tad hot headed. Just look at his history. The guy was always going off the track even when he was at Sauber.
And to say he has a lot of respect for his title rivals is a joke. After taking Lewis out all Massa had to say was that he didn't deserve the penalty as it was just a racing incident. So much for respect towards Lewis.
User avatar
By Denthúl
#71549
I disagree. Massa's move had a greater potential for success than Kovalainen's which, in all honesty, could not possibly have worked. It was careless, for he simply spent the entire straight uncertain about it and then just stuck his car out there in an awkward position that would yield no results. It was still silly and he should not have gone around the way he did, but I don't think it warrants anything more than a drive-through penalty.

It had no chance of working. Massa went far too wide into the corner and Hamilton had the inside of the corner. At best, the size of the space available was half the width of the Ferrari.


Not with Massa coming out on top, no. But there was always the possibility for him to have lifted off and fed back on to the track right behind Hamilton and then try to nail him down the straight - he had enough straight-line speed. Regardless of which outcome, a drive-through would have been inevitable because he'd have been under investigation for cutting the chicane anyway. The only difference would have been that Lewis would not have lost quite as much time, though I don't think he could really have salvaged much of a result anyway because of the flat-spotting and the drive-through. Shame, really, because I wanted to see those two and Raikkonen battle on track with Kovalainen pulling off some assisting moves.

Disappointing, really :(

It's also worth saying that after today's display of driving from Massa and Alonso's opening lap in Singapore, to name but two incidents, the vitriol meted out to Hamilton and his driving has been proven completely unfair.


Are you talking about the Spa controversy or what Kubica said about him being dangerous?

Well, the Spa incident principally, but Massa showed that he just as aggressive as Hamilton.[/quote]

The Spa incident I agree with you on. I can't think of a driver who wouldn't have taken that option, despite the other possibilities. And aside from Massa, nobody other than Hamilton made a display of dangerous driving today. I think that Kubica's are justifiable to an extent, especially given the way Hamilton tried to pull off that doomed move. I don't think he's the only dangerous driver in the sport, but he's certainly the one that stands out the most by trying to pass-off things like that as "just racing". Pushing Massa and Piquet wide in Hockenheim was "just racing". Pushing Glock and Webber very wide in Monza was borderline, but still within the rules of fair play, even if only just, though the risks were very much there. And today can be passed off as nothing other than dangerous and overly-aggressive. He had no chance of making that work, forced a number of drivers (including his team-mate!) to take evasive action and, you could say (though I don't personally believe it was his fault) that he caused the incident involving Nakajima and Coulthard by bunching everybody up and making them go wide.

He's not as dangerous as Kubica says, no, not even close, though he is quite often fairly rude on-track with some of his moves. The air of arrogance about them does remind me somewhat of Michael Schumacher, who took a "King of the Road" approach that I strongly disagree with. I guess the difference is that Lewis has not caused any incidents like Schumacher did, although we're only in early days. He does have a lot of maturing to do, though he has already come a long way from last season. Let's hope it continues and we can have a world championship from him soon enough.

Im getting sick of all this lewis sympathy,

If I was a mclaren supporter, I would be so pissed of with him right now that he hasnt become a 2 times champion by Monza. Mclaren have been the most competative theyve been in 10 years and only been :censored: about by a rookie with a huge head! the mistake he made today at the start was so amatuerish, foolish and desperate it was laughable. he only needed 3rd place and its all still good for the next 2 races. Hes lucky he lost 2 points in his lead today.

watch out people, he isnt the star you think he is. just a rookie in a good car :thumbdown:


If lewis had locked up in turn one it would have been an awesome move. Drivers make mistakes. I admit he does annoy the hell out of me when his moves don't come off but that is part of the reason i love him, he isn't afraid to take a risk. F1 would be better off with more drivers like him. I'm fed up of F1's overtaking being done in the pits.

Also If Lewis is a rookie then who would you consider world class?
Mate, just remember that Senna is the best racer to have ever lived and he made much more ambitious moves than Lewis. Passion is the reason we love racers. One other thing, if the McLaren is so good then why the hell is Heiki so far behind Lewis when Lewis is an "amateur". I think by the fact Lewis obtained the same number of points as Alonso last year is enough evidence to prove his skill.


Possibly, but remember that Villeneuve only finished second to Hill in 1996 because of team orders and then went on to win the championship a year later, but then he went in to a perennial downward-spiral. His championship-position alone proves nothing. It's how he drives that does that.

On to the point, the only ways for Lewis not to have locked up like that would have been either for him to brake much earlier, thus losing the position to Raikkonen, or apply less brakes and carry on off the track, losing even more ground. I wouldn't call today a mistake as such, I'd call it a silly act that could, if he's not careful in the next two races, cost him the title. He over-drove at Brazil last season and as a result Raikkonen clinched the title. I'd hate to see him do the same thing again this year.

"Do what he did" is simply to try to drive along the kerb/gravel so as not to lose time to Hamilton, subsequently tagging Hamilton because he was not able to execute the move he had planned.

You can think I'm an idiot all that you like, I don't particularly care to be honest. It didn't even look like he tried to drive in to Lewis. Furthermore, having watched Massa over the years, that is not a part of his character. With Schumacher, you had a guy who was prepared to do such things and it was clear to tell. With Massa, he has a lot of respect for his title rivals and is not the kind of guy to do something like that. In addition, Massa had far too much to lose to try such a move. The likelihood of his car suffering suspension damage if he'd actually driven in to Hamilton like you suggest was far too great for him to take the risk as it would put himself and Hamilton out of the race and leave him with a defecit of seven points but now with only two races to go.

It was a silly piece of driving, but nothing more.


I think we both know Massa is a tad hot headed. Just look at his history. The guy was always going off the track even when he was at Sauber.
And to say he has a lot of respect for his title rivals is a joke. After taking Lewis out all Massa had to say was that he didn't deserve the penalty as it was just a racing incident. So much for respect towards Lewis.


He's not hot-headed as such. That was Montoya's trick. Rather, he's an aggressive, fast driver. He was off the track all the time at Sauber because, quite frankly, he was pants. It's taken him a long time to mature to the level that he has but now he's mature enough to be able to keep it on-track, play the points-game and not over-drive when the pressure is on. From the aftermath of Malaysia, we've seen a calmer, much more focussed driver and the amount of effort he has put in is spectacular. To say he has no respect for Hamilton, and indeed his other rivals, is plain ridiculous. He has shown and stated it on many occasions. But once again, the portrayal of a villain has come in to play. It has happened over the years in Formula 1 and, indeed, every sport. People pick a favourite and then turn their opponent into a villain which, in reality, they are not.
By Brazzy23
#71558
To say he has no respect for Hamilton, and indeed his other rivals, is plain ridiculous. He has shown and stated it on many occasions. But once again, the portrayal of a villain has come in to play. It has happened over the years in Formula 1 and, indeed, every sport. People pick a favourite and then turn their opponent into a villain which, in reality, they are not.


Enough with this villain nonsense, the only villain in F1 is the FIA. I used that statement as an example of Massa not being as respectful towards lewis as he perhaps should have been merely to shove him off the pedestal that you had placed him upon. I have no problem with Massa, he is a good driver.
User avatar
By EwanM
#71562
But once again, the portrayal of a villain has come in to play. It has happened over the years in Formula 1 and, indeed, every sport. People pick a favourite and then turn their opponent into a villain which, in reality, they are not.


Id agree with that.
And you can see it in every sport.
To keep it on F1 - Schumacher got some pelters, especially from the British Media.
Alonso to, and soon enough Massa.

Hamilton gets his stick in the foreign media.
But the British media is terrible, you see it in football all the time, they dictate what is an issue and what isn't.
The media has a big say in making up people's minds. Especially those who don't watch or follow F1 with great interest.
User avatar
By Denthúl
#71572
To say he has no respect for Hamilton, and indeed his other rivals, is plain ridiculous. He has shown and stated it on many occasions. But once again, the portrayal of a villain has come in to play. It has happened over the years in Formula 1 and, indeed, every sport. People pick a favourite and then turn their opponent into a villain which, in reality, they are not.


Enough with this villain nonsense, the only villain in F1 is the FIA. I used that statement as an example of Massa not being as respectful towards lewis as he perhaps should have been merely to shove him off the pedestal that you had placed him upon. I have no problem with Massa, he is a good driver.


It is not nonsense. You seem to be getting the idea that I said you had branded Massa as a villain. That is incorrect. However, just like many, many other drivers have been in the history of the championship, he has been branded so by the majority of the English public, particularly those of the McLaren and/or Hamilton camp. I'm not saying it all, but a huge portion of them certainly do so, yet last season those same people were commenting on how lovely the guy was. He hasn't changed, but because he's now a title contender and could take everything away from McLaren and Hamilton, he's suddenly portrayed as the 'bad guy' at every opportunity.

I placed Massa on no pedestal, I just took him from the unfairly-low place you tried to leave him. If you really want to take stabs at how people don't have respect for others, I'll be glad to bring up a few that would seem to fit in to that category, including some from your guy Lewis. :)

Seriously, though, Massa is one of the guys with the most respect for the other drivers in the sport. Others include Barrichello, Kovalainen and Vettel. Some have much less respect, but show it in varying levels. I think deep down, though, the respect is always there. After all, they are the elite drivers of our world and they all know just how tough the job is. So yeah, there will never be no respect between drivers, no matter how much they may bicker.
By Brazzy23
#71580
Actually if you read most english papers these days they are all portraying Hamilton as the villain. Massa never even gets a mention so it is incorrect to say Massa gets blamed.
All headlines tomorrow will no doubt mention Lewis trying to lose the championship. Our media never seems to support Lewis when he is down which is pretty criminal to be honest.
User avatar
By EwanM
#71581
Actually if you read most english papers these days they are all portraying Hamilton as the villain. Massa never even gets a mention so it is incorrect to say Massa gets blamed.
All headlines tomorrow will no doubt mention Lewis trying to lose the championship. Our media never seems to support Lewis when he is down which is pretty criminal to be honest.


Its a double edged sword. If England lose at anything the media seem to protray it like the world is ending.
User avatar
By McLaren Fan
#71838
Hardly. Whilst Massa did unfairly gain a second point, he was severely penalised for his incident with Hamilton. He set a string of laps in the 1:18 range, the only driver to break in to that range today. Had he not been given a penalty, he could quite easily have found himself up on the podium today, doing a lot more damage to Hamilton's title campaign.

Severely penalised! He got off lightly. The punishment did not fit the crime. In the case of Hamilton, the stewards couldn't give him less than a drive-through penalty, so fair enough, but Massa should be lucky he wasn't black-flagged.

Not with Massa coming out on top, no. But there was always the possibility for him to have lifted off and fed back on to the track right behind Hamilton and then try to nail him down the straight - he had enough straight-line speed. Regardless of which outcome, a drive-through would have been inevitable because he'd have been under investigation for cutting the chicane anyway. The only difference would have been that Lewis would not have lost quite as much time, though I don't think he could really have salvaged much of a result anyway because of the flat-spotting and the drive-through. Shame, really, because I wanted to see those two and Raikkonen battle on track with Kovalainen pulling off some assisting moves.

Disappointing, really :(

Well, if Massa did slip past Hamilton, as you say, he should have hit with a drive-through penalty. Hamilton, however, would have made gains, for his car would not have been damaged and he was faster than everybody throughout the whole weekend. If Massa secured two points - or one, minus the politics - Hamilton would have done so.

See our F1 related articles too!