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[AKR]

Check this out. And please my comments are based SOLEY on what I interpret from the race footage meaning this is a race analysis opinion, not one based on who my prefered driver or team is. If anyone wishes to argue this after viewing the footage which I am sure plenty will, please don't get personal and stick to facts based on the racing footage like I have done. Thankyou for you kind participation, enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrUi0x3k ... re=related

It is quite long so perhaps forward the You Tube video clip to about 3:20 into it. It is from Lewis Hamilton's cockpit the view of the incident. You'll see the incident at the chicane and then after that you will see Lewis Hamilton ahead and then you will see Lewis Hamilton allow Kimi to re-take the position AND clearly remain in Kimi's slipstream thus slingshotting back past infront of Kimi before the corner. From Lewis Hamilton's cockpit view you can clearly see he used the slipstream of Kimi's car to his advantage, an advantage he never would of had, had he not cut the chicane to begin with and not of had to allow Kimi to re-take his position. Thus it looks like Lewis Hamilton has gained an advantage he thus wouldn't of had after all, meaning the stewards decison was correct. If this is so then McLaren's appeal is destined to fail. Lewis Hamilton could of easuly have won this race. He was quicker than Kimi on those last 2 laps and had he just waited on perhaps the next corner, Lewis Hamilton had plenty of chances to easily re-pass Kimi ans win. I guess it is all down to experience which Lewis Hamilton is getting more and more as each race goes by.

[bud]

pure pathetic air

[AKR]

pure pathetic air

It is clear no one can reason with you Bud. Don't waste my time or anyone elses. If you think my analysis is wrong then explain to me based on the footage or any other footage that Lewis Hamilton didn't use the slipstream or wasn't advantaged by it. This I am interested in hearing as this is a debate. Any other crap I don't want to know about, as bickering about bullpoo as you like starting is a waste of time. I made this clear as well on top of my origianal post. Thankyou.

[McLaren Fan]

Looking back now don't you think they were right to be cautious in trying to avoid something like what is going on right now? Instead of being a sign of guilt, could the question have been a sign of justified paranoia?

Paranoia or not, it would have been the wiser decision to play it safe and stay back a while longer to avoid any of this...

yeah why not stop for a cup of tea during that time

hey ole chap fancy a cup of tea.....

oh wait we are racing good fellow

come again i say

Well, LH was reigning KR in and would have passed him very soon anyway, so what's the rush? Inexperience of the driver paired with McLaren's cockiness me thinks...

That's sort of bloody stupid comment an armchair fan with a chip on his shoulder the size of the British Isles would say.

Check this out. And please my comments are based SOLEY on what I interpret from the race footage meaning this is a race analysis opinion, not one based on who my prefered driver or team is. If anyone wishes to argue this after viewing the footage which I am sure plenty will, please don't get personal and stick to facts based on the racing footage like I have done. Thankyou for you kind participation, enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrUi0x3k ... re=related

It is quite long so perhaps forward the You Tube video clip to about 3:20 into it. It is from Lewis Hamilton's cockpit the view of the incident. You'll see the incident at the chicane and then after that you will see Lewis Hamilton ahead and then you will see Lewis Hamilton allow Kimi to re-take the position AND clearly remain in Kimi's slipstream thus slingshotting back past infront of Kimi before the corner. From Lewis Hamilton's cockpit view you can clearly see he used the slipstream of Kimi's car to his advantage, an advantage he never would of had, had he not cut the chicane to begin with and not of had to allow Kimi to re-take his position. Thus it looks like Lewis Hamilton has gained an advantage he thus wouldn't of had after all, meaning the stewards decison was correct. If this is so then McLaren's appeal is destined to fail. Lewis Hamilton could of easuly have won this race. He was quicker than Kimi on those last 2 laps and had he just waited on perhaps the next corner, Lewis Hamilton had plenty of chances to easily re-pass Kimi ans win. I guess it is all down to experience which Lewis Hamilton is getting more and more as each race goes by.

A flawed analysis, failing to take into account several different things. First, before Hamilton tried to pass Raikkonen, he was in the Ferrari's slip stream and extremely close to him, so close in fact he had to quickly dodge Raikkonen's Ferrari when it braked in order to take the Bus Stop corner. Therefore, Hamilton had no obligation to allow Raikkonen to saunter on several car lengths in front of him - that would have been giving away too much. Then, AKR, you completely don't understand how a slip stream works. You would have to tail a car for longer than about a second to obtain a meaningful advantage away. You also fail to take into account Raikkonen's own driving. He completely surrendered La Source to Hamilton by moving to the outside of the track. Finally, you fail to consider the poor handling of the F2008 in wet conditions. Raikkonen's car was very under braking, handled like a fully-laden shopping trolley through corners and had pathetic traction coming out of them. All of these contributed to Hamilton being able to catch up with and easily pass Raikkonen.

[bud]

they werent even going fast enough for a slip stream and Hammy wasnt even full throttle until Kimi got back infront.

Kimi broke early swerved during braking then tried to punt Hamilton after he got infront.
Not to mention Kimi overtaking Lewis under yellows.

[McLaren Fan]

they werent even going fast enough for a slip stream and Hammy wasnt even full throttle until Kimi got back infront.

Kimi broke early swerved during braking then tried to punt Hamilton after he got infront.
Not to mention Kimi overtaking Lewis under yellows.

Or his two little off track excursions during the Grand Prix which gained him an advantage. But that's right, it's one rule for Ferrari and another rule for Ferrari's challengers.

[Mikep99]

A flawed analysis, failing to take into account several different things. First, before Hamilton tried to pass Raikkonen, he was in the Ferrari's slip stream and extremely close to him, so close in fact he had to quickly dodge Raikkonen's Ferrari when it braked in order to take the Bus Stop corner. Therefore, Hamilton had no obligation to allow Raikkonen to saunter on several car lengths in front of him - that would have been giving away too much. Then, AKR, you completely don't understand how a slip stream works. You would have to tail a car for longer than about a second to obtain a meaningful advantage away. You also fail to take into account Raikkonen's own driving. He completely surrendered La Source to Hamilton by moving to the outside of the track. Finally, you fail to consider the poor handling of the F2008 in wet conditions. Raikkonen's car was very under braking, handled like a fully-laden shopping trolley through corners and had pathetic traction coming out of them. All of these contributed to Hamilton being able to catch up with and easily pass Raikkonen.

I personnel think this was a racing incident & no penalty should have applied, but I also think it is not as clear cut as you appear to think it is & I do see merit in some of the for and against arguments.

BUT I do take exception with some of your statement.

1.

First, before Hamilton tried to pass Raikkonen, he was in the Ferrari's slip stream and extremely close to him, so close in fact he had to quickly dodge Raikkonen's Ferrari when it braked in order to take the Bus Stop corner.

Granted he was so far up his tail pipe that he could see what he had for breakfast.
But from the video you can clearly see that Hammy could have braked & followed a much tighter line around that corner following Kimi instead of taking the direct & shorter rout.
Now why didn't he do this ? Reason is because he would have lost momentum that's why ? Was hammy out of control - No, So I say why the F**K should he not stay on the track when it was physically possible ? Answer: because he is a cunning racer & took the tactical rout.
The track is there for a purpose. To stay on it and if you go off your dead or you are in a worst state than when you were on it.

This was clearly an over estimate of the situation on hammys part and he over commitment to the overtake. So he made a MISTAKE. (You know that thing that he never does)


2.

Therefore, Hamilton had no obligation to allow Raikkonen to saunter on several car lengths in front of him - that would have been giving away too much.

Like I said If you make a mistake you have no right to be in the same situation or better than before the mistake. So I would say it is'nt an obligation but it is just common scene that he should not have the opportunity so easily to make up for the mistake.
So in effect it was as if hammy followed Kimi around that corner right up his arse.
But he made a mistake and he should not have been there - SIMPLE

3.

You also fail to take into account Raikkonen's own driving. He completely surrendered La Source to Hamilton by moving to the outside of the track.

This is debatable but even if Kimi did Hammy's move was a bit of a ballsy kamikaze move where he was hoping Kimi blinked first which he didn't.
Would have hammy done the same move knowing there was a wall there or a gravel trap. NO

So to me Hammys mindset was. "I will lay it all on the line here because I have my escape rout planned if I don't pull it off" - Very smart driver he is & he will go a long way I can tell.

But is that racing when you take risks knowing you have an escape ready which is not on the RACING TRACK. Is it right ? Is it in the rules? And if you do take that rout should you be rewarded by being in a equal or even better position than you were before you took that escape rout off the racing track.


Don't know but this seems all very logical thinking to me, it's no rocket science.I might be wrong but just think you might be too

[AKR]

A flawed analysis, failing to take into account several different things. First, before Hamilton tried to pass Raikkonen, he was in the Ferrari's slip stream and extremely close to him, so close in fact he had to quickly dodge Raikkonen's Ferrari when it braked in order to take the Bus Stop corner. Therefore, Hamilton had no obligation to allow Raikkonen to saunter on several car lengths in front of him - that would have been giving away too much. Then, AKR, you completely don't understand how a slip stream works. You would have to tail a car for longer than about a second to obtain a meaningful advantage away. You also fail to take into account Raikkonen's own driving. He completely surrendered La Source to Hamilton by moving to the outside of the track. Finally, you fail to consider the poor handling of the F2008 in wet conditions. Raikkonen's car was very under braking, handled like a fully-laden shopping trolley through corners and had pathetic traction coming out of them. All of these contributed to Hamilton being able to catch up with and easily pass Raikkonen.

At least your rebuttal is worthy of consideration unlike Bud's answers. It looks like this (as far as the FIA is concerned) will go either way. (Unless Max Mosley decides to take sides that is) So pointless to argue them I guess because they wont listen to us. Your points were of interest of thought anyway so thankyou. By the way I am well aware of how a slipstream works having tryed the concept out with a friend of mine in seperate vehicles on the autoput in the past.

[bud]

Racing incident usually if there is no clean cut side usually the benefit of doubt would apply dont you think instead of manipulating the championship over a move that had no consequence to the championship?

Mike are you blind??? Hamilton was 1/4 the way up Kimi's car with a dissapearing APEX the only way to go was to turn left or to hit Kimi SImple!

its nice to see you and AKR's true colours coming out in the argument finally

typical Lambs afterall

[AKR]

Racing incident usually if there is no clean cut side usually the benefit of doubt would apply dont you think instead of manipulating the championship over a move that had no consequence to the championship?

Mike are you blind??? Hamilton was 1/4 the way up Kimi's car with a dissapearing APEX the only way to go was to turn left or to hit Kimi SImple!

its nice to see you and AKR's true colours coming out in the argument finally

typical Lambs afterall

Bud I am finally going to say it as I have had enough. You are pathetic. Can't you just respond like McLaren Fan did? At least with McLaren Fan's response I actually took that in as productive analysis weather I liked it or not. You are just hopeless. All you want to hear is one damm thing. You have shown your true colours already and it is pure pathetic. Sorry I had to resort down to this as I hate doing it and have tried to avoid it until now best I could.

[bud]

awwww AKR is upset that she is called a lamb. sorry but you are!!! deal with it

go and have celebratory drinks with the new rain master Massa for his great gutsy win in Spa

[Mikep99]

Racing incident usually if there is no clean cut side usually the benefit of doubt would apply dont you think instead of manipulating the championship over a move that had no consequence to the championship?

Mike are you blind??? Hamilton was 1/4 the way up Kimi's car with a dissapearing APEX the only way to go was to turn left or to hit Kimi SImple!

its nice to see you and AKR's true colours coming out in the argument finally

typical Lambs afterall

bud you truly are a w***er mate. If you don't get your own way or someone has the hide to even have a different opinion to your's you go all Nasty. What an immature child you are.
Have a look at both inside & outside shots mate. They hammy could have made it around the track if he wanted to. But even if he could not, Should he be as well of as he was before his MISTAKE. Think mate.

So what are my true colors mate. If you read my post they are my true colors for all to see. UNBIASE as I can possible be but trying to see things in the same light as I lead my life.

Hammy should not have been penalized but I can see why he could have.

So bud go and grovel in your own BIAS crap mate.

[AKR]

Racing incident usually if there is no clean cut side usually the benefit of doubt would apply dont you think instead of manipulating the championship over a move that had no consequence to the championship?

Mike are you blind??? Hamilton was 1/4 the way up Kimi's car with a dissapearing APEX the only way to go was to turn left or to hit Kimi SImple!

its nice to see you and AKR's true colours coming out in the argument finally

typical Lambs afterall

bud you truly are a w***er mate. If you don't get your own way or someone has the hide to even have a different opinion to your's you go all Nasty. What an immature child you are.
Have a look at both inside & outside shots mate. They hammy could have made it around the track if he wanted to. But even if he could not, Should he be as well of as he was before his MISTAKE. Think mate.

So what are my true colors mate. If you read my post they are my true colors for all to see. UNBIASE as I can possible be but trying to see things in the same light as I lead my life.

Hammy should not have been penalized but I can see why he could have.

So bud go and grovel in your own BIAS crap mate.

Exactly. You said it perfect Mike so GRAZIE. All my analysis was that Lewis Hamilton could of been penailised for the reason I pointed out. It didn't mean I partiular believed it was right. I made it clear before i wrote it at the start of the post. McLaren Fan was intelligent enough to understand this and write his thoughts on it which were very good. You on the otherhand Bud couldn't help yourself. Mike is right, you are very inmature.

[bud]

doesnt seem so to me, seems just like Massa youre trying to make sense of the incident too look at it from a pro Ferrari slant in order to make the Ferrari points situation seem comfortable for you to believe in!

You say its a racing incident then thats your story why go to the trouble of disambiguating some one elses stupidity?

any racer apart from those going against Lewis see this as a wrong call no matter how deep you look at it

dont worry about me i am comfy in my position on this very comfy

[texasmr2]

Ok I see a mod has to once again stepin and ask to get back to the topic at hand and leave your personal insult's to yourself. Frankly this is getting very tiresome for the whole forum.

McLaren has the right to appeal the decision and frankly I hope they win the appeal and the decision is overturned. There are just to many grey area's in the FIA's interpretation's of the rule's.