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[FerrariFan63]

Contraversy to what Bud believes who he has personally called me "Pathetic", you are right Kiwi_Chris, I as well cannot claim that Massa deserved to win. The penalty to Lewis Hamilton was unjust. I say just take it as it comes now. If the appeal reverses the verdict great, if it does not then soldier on. A true champion will eventually triumph in the end.

Great comment there. Posters such as McLarenFan and Bud have this weird view of Ferrari fans where they (McLF & Bud) assume that all Ferrari fans are "blind lambs". What this event has shown is that Ferrari fans are, apart from a small lunatic fringe) generally able to evaluate events in an objective manner. I'm not sure the Wokingite twosome can quite understand this, so keep on tilting at windmills.

[bud]

i think the small fringe part you talk of are actually the ones who think this was unjust.

McLaren fan talked of a poll on a Ferrari forum where 58% thought it was the right call.

and did you see the Italian news papers?? of course they took the win on merit

open your eyes! i know if this was reversed i would not accept it, you see i do not see any honour in winning in this manner, i prefer my team to win on track i do not take freebies!

[McLaren Fan]

i think the small fringe part you talk of are actually the ones who think this was unjust.

McLaren fan talked of a poll on a Ferrari forum where 58% thought it was the right call.

and did you see the Italian news papers?? of course they took the win on merit

open your eyes! i know if this was reversed i would not accept it, you see i do not see any honour in winning in this manner, i prefer my team to win on track i do not take freebies!

That poll is up to 63% now. A couple of people who support other teams have also voted, so you could probably add another couple of percent on top of that figure. Basically, two out of three Ferrari fans agree with what happened yesterday. The saddest part is that a lot of them didn't think Hamilton should have been penalised, but were glad he was so that Ferrari could benefit. Whatever happened to sportsmanship in Italy? Their football players are constantly diving when somebody so much as looks at them and the way they endorse the behaviour of their team and the FIA is reprehensible. Ferrari were a great team. Somebody please hound out the current set of amoral swines running it and return the team its pride!

[Dardas]

i think the small fringe part you talk of are actually the ones who think this was unjust.

McLaren fan talked of a poll on a Ferrari forum where 58% thought it was the right call.

and did you see the Italian news papers?? of course they took the win on merit

open your eyes! i know if this was reversed i would not accept it, you see i do not see any honour in winning in this manner, i prefer my team to win on track i do not take freebies!

That poll is up to 63% now. A couple of people who support other teams have also voted, so you could probably add another couple of percent on top of that figure. Basically, two out of three Ferrari fans agree with what happened yesterday. The saddest part is that a lot of them didn't think Hamilton should have been penalised, but were glad he was so that Ferrari could benefit. Whatever happened to sportsmanship in Italy? Their football players are constantly diving when somebody so much as looks at them and the way they endorse the behaviour of their team and the FIA is reprehensible. Ferrari were a great team. Somebody please hound out the current set of amoral swines running it and return the team its pride!

Why you are thinking that only ferrari fans are voting "yes"?
I think he should be penalised even if he drove a great race and I'm not supporting any of this team.
It was just this little moment when he decided to cut the corner on purpose. If he would not have any other choice, fair enough, but the truth is he was behind KR, could have slowned down and follow him but decided to cut. That in my opinion is something LH need to work on. His mind is sometimes a bit slower than his heart.
Still he rather will be WDC and frankly after last race and I don't think KR will have to much chance to prove himself. Ferrari would put on Massa, and somehow I'm afraid he will screw them.

Any arguments like MS in 06 did exactly same and wasn't penalised - well Maradonna scored with his hand shall we allow all the rest do exactly same?

And before you will start to "lamb" me etc, perhaps some calm look is coming together with age

[sprinter]

FIA is all bullpoo! everybody know that! They LOVE FERRARI and you ALL know that too (pretty obvious)! We know who is REALLY the WINNER of that race, and you saw it with your own two eyes. NO QUESTION ASK, Hamilton DESERVED that race. It was the best Grand Prix race for me as of now.

[Denthúl]

FIA is all bullpoo! everybody know that! They LOVE FERRARI and you ALL know that too (pretty obvious)! We know who is REALLY the WINNER of that race, and you saw it with your own two eyes. NO QUESTION ASK, Hamilton DESERVED that race. It was the best Grand Prix race for me as of now.

In all honesty, I think Kimi deserved it more right up until the rain started to fall. He wanted it more and he completely out-classed Lewis right up until the end. His downfall, however, was the rain and his equipment. Lewis beat him for four laps of the race. Unfortunately for Kimi, they were the four laps that mattered the most.

[8-ball]

i think the small fringe part you talk of are actually the ones who think this was unjust.

McLaren fan talked of a poll on a Ferrari forum where 58% thought it was the right call.

and did you see the Italian news papers?? of course they took the win on merit

open your eyes! i know if this was reversed i would not accept it, you see i do not see any honour in winning in this manner, i prefer my team to win on track i do not take freebies!

That poll is up to 63% now. A couple of people who support other teams have also voted, so you could probably add another couple of percent on top of that figure. Basically, two out of three Ferrari fans agree with what happened yesterday. The saddest part is that a lot of them didn't think Hamilton should have been penalised, but were glad he was so that Ferrari could benefit. Whatever happened to sportsmanship in Italy? Their football players are constantly diving when somebody so much as looks at them and the way they endorse the behaviour of their team and the FIA is reprehensible. Ferrari were a great team. Somebody please hound out the current set of amoral swines running it and return the team its pride!

You two are taking this too far. What has the lack of footballing skill in Italy have to do with the situation? Every footballer from every country dives and I would say it is more prominent in south america than in Italy. Ferrari are still a good team regardless of the bias and they have consistently make F1 top cars for years now. Calm down you two and don't get irrational like the Ferrari who support the crazy decision

[stonemonkey]

I've just read James Allens verdict on the race and he appears to be under the impression that the decision made by the stewards was based on the fact that while in the dry, what Lewis gave back would've been acceptable but in the wet the Ferrari's not so good and he should've given more. If there's anything in that then what next, Ferrari get a 1 lap head start in wet races?

How does the opinion of a man that gave his child the name Enzo ever have any meaning in this situation good or bad!?

Wasn't aware of that but the validity of your point would depend upon how he came to be under that impression, if he came up with it himself as I assume he came up with the name himself then your point would be most valid.

[onelapdown]

He shouldnt have been penalised for that, he did gain an advantage but then relented the position he gained. I dont get how it really matters because Kimi spun anyway so any disadvantage he had he expanded on anyway by crashing.

I hope the Mclaren appeal goes in their favour as Lewis drove brilliantly in the last few laps of the Grand Prix and deserved the win, I dont think even AKR could claim that Massa deserved the win

Contraversy to what Bud believes who he has personally called me "Pathetic", you are right Kiwi_Chris, I as well cannot claim that Massa deserved to win. The penalty to Lewis Hamilton was unjust. I say just take it as it comes now. If the appeal reverses the verdict great, if it does not then soldier on. A true champion will eventually triumph in the end.

Nice one AKR, that's exactly how I'd look at it if I was a Ferrari fan

[AKR]

Whatever happened to sportsmanship in Italy? Their football players are constantly diving when somebody so much as looks at them and the way they endorse the behaviour of their team and the FIA is reprehensible. Ferrari were a great team. Somebody please hound out the current set of amoral swines running it and return the team its pride!

Mr McLaren Fan I now ask you nicely to stop bagging my country. Stop referring to us as cheats as now this is getting offensive. Stick to bagging Ferrari and the FIA if you wish but the other part stops now!

[AKR]

From http://www.planetf1.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Have The Stewards Made An Error Of Fact?

Monday 8th September 2008



Either Lewis Hamilton was punished for leaving the racetrack or he was punished for gaining an advantage when he did so. The stewards have got themselves into a muddle for claiming it was both...

The three race stewards who imposed a 25-second race penalty against Lewis Hamilton have raised more questions than answers - and possibly erred in legal judgement - in declaring that they punished the McLaren driver for leaving the racetrack by describing it as 'fact' that he gained an advantage when cutting the chicane.

Refusing to publicly explain their decision, the three stewards - Nicholas Deschaux, Surinder Thatthi and Yves Bacquelain - instead opted to announce their ruling in a press release through the FIA.

Short on words, the statement, which began by confirming that the 'Stewards determine a breach of the regulations has been committed', listed as 'Fact' that Hamilton 'Cut the chicane and gained an advantage' and specified as 'Offence' the 'Breach of Article 30.3 (a) of the 2008 Formula One Sporting Regulations and Appendix L chapter 4 Article 2 (g) of the International Sporting Code.'

While post-race debate focused almost exclusively on whether Hamilton had gained an advantage when he cut the chicane and if he then surrendered it, the 'offence' for which the stewards declared he had been punished made the issue totally irrelevant.

Article 30.3 (a) of the 2008 Formula One Sporting Regulations' makes no mention of whether an advantage had been gained and instead states that 'During practice and the race, drivers may use only the track and must at all times observe the provisions of the Code relating to driving behaviour on circuits'. The near-identical Appendix L chapter 4 Article 2 (g) of the International Sporting Code adds that 'The racetrack alone shall be used by drivers during the race'.

In other words, Hamilton was purely and simply punished for leaving the racetrack when he cut the chicane.

Such a vague and all-encompassing stipulation in the rulebook gives the stewards considerable latitude. In effect, it allows them to punish any and every driver in the field on every occasion they leave the tarmac. However, given that Hamilton was far from being alone in leaving the race track on Sunday then their decision to focus exclusively on the McLaren driver's whereabouts is bound, once again, to prompt talk of bias and witch-hunts.

Were the stewards to have been inclined to maintain a consistent line then they would, for instance, have had to punish Kimi Raikkonen for leaving the racetrack at the Pouhon corner as he strived to retake the lead. Likewise, Nico Rosberg, with whom both Hamilton and Raikkonen nearly crashed before the Finn temporarily regained the lead of the race as he overtook both cars under a yellow flag, should, if the stewards' application of the rules was consistent, have suffered an identical punishment to Hamilton for sliding off the track and on to the grass.

Technically, as the team cannot dispute that Hamilton left the racetrack, the citation of Articles 30.3 (a) and chapter 4 Article 2 (g) leave McLaren with no room for manoeuvre or appeal.

However, their legal team is instead bound to focus upon the line in the stewards' ruling that reads 'Fact - Cut the chicane and gained an advantage'. In fact, the question of whether Hamilton gained an advantage remains a matter of dispute rather than 'fact' - the only 'fact' is that it is the stewards' opinion that Hamilton gained an advantage. By claiming otherwise, and seemingly basing their right to impose a penalty upon their claimed 'fact', the stewards may have made an error that will enable McLaren to contest their ruling.

For while McLaren cannot argue against the fact that Hamilton left the track, they can argue against the assertion that it is a fact he gained an advantage and the rights of the stewards to claim it is a fact and act accordingly. Were the stewards to be found wrong in doing so then the legitimacy - as well as the accuracy - of their ruling would then have to be called into fresh question.

Yes I read up on F1 everyday by going to various sites. No I am not a lamb and I am looking at this issue from every angle. From what I read here, McLaren may have a chance to appeal the matter. But even then there is absolutely no gurantee that the appeal will even succeed. Personally I think it cannot succed and this is not because I don't want it to, but more based on the matter that Ferrari have protested it (I already posted that somewhere) and have their view on this and that unfortunately for the sport the FIA appears to favour Ferrari. All we can do now is wait and see what happens. All this arguing and name calling will not change anything.

[big_suff]

I don't believe nor do i understand why Lewis should be penalised. Yes he cut the chicane, and gained an unfair advantage in moving forward one position in doing so, however as soon as he was in a safe portion of the circut he gave Kimi back his position. Both drivers moved onto the racing line, and then Lewis made a legal passing move and made a clean pass. Any apparent loss of position by Kimmi was corrected and in the ultimate case, Kimi's engine blew anyway so where was the disadvantage??

Personally i do not watch much F1, being situated in a time zone where races are held late at night or early in the morning, however i am a big fan of the Australian V8 Supercars competition, and i am sure that if this were to occur in a V8 race there would not be the same outcome.

Big mistake here by the FIA board

[AKR]

I don't believe nor do i understand why Lewis should be penalised. Yes he cut the chicane, and gained an unfair advantage in moving forward one position in doing so, however as soon as he was in a safe portion of the circut he gave Kimi back his position. Both drivers moved onto the racing line, and then Lewis made a legal passing move and made a clean pass. Any apparent loss of position by Kimmi was corrected and in the ultimate case, Kimi's engine blew anyway so where was the disadvantage??

Personally i do not watch much F1, being situated in a time zone where races are held late at night or early in the morning, however i am a big fan of the Australian V8 Supercars competition, and i am sure that if this were to occur in a V8 race there would not be the same outcome.

Big mistake here by the FIA board

Actually Kimi crashed out. The engine was fine. So at least on a more positive note we know both Ferraris were able to finish the race (I am sure Kimi would of finished had he not crashed out) and thus hopefully their recent engine problems have been solved.

[big_suff]

I don't believe nor do i understand why Lewis should be penalised. Yes he cut the chicane, and gained an unfair advantage in moving forward one position in doing so, however as soon as he was in a safe portion of the circut he gave Kimi back his position. Both drivers moved onto the racing line, and then Lewis made a legal passing move and made a clean pass. Any apparent loss of position by Kimmi was corrected and in the ultimate case, Kimi's engine blew anyway so where was the disadvantage??

Personally i do not watch much F1, being situated in a time zone where races are held late at night or early in the morning, however i am a big fan of the Australian V8 Supercars competition, and i am sure that if this were to occur in a V8 race there would not be the same outcome.

Big mistake here by the FIA board

Actually Kimi crashed out. The engine was fine. So at least on a more positive note we know both Ferraris were able to finish the race (I am sure Kimi would of finished had he not crashed out) and thus hopefully their recent engine problems have been solved.

My bad, i heard on Fox Sports News the engine blew, either way where is the advantage gained by Lewis because there was none gained in the chicane cutting, then legal overtaking move on the next corner?

[AKR]

I don't believe nor do i understand why Lewis should be penalised. Yes he cut the chicane, and gained an unfair advantage in moving forward one position in doing so, however as soon as he was in a safe portion of the circut he gave Kimi back his position. Both drivers moved onto the racing line, and then Lewis made a legal passing move and made a clean pass. Any apparent loss of position by Kimmi was corrected and in the ultimate case, Kimi's engine blew anyway so where was the disadvantage??

Personally i do not watch much F1, being situated in a time zone where races are held late at night or early in the morning, however i am a big fan of the Australian V8 Supercars competition, and i am sure that if this were to occur in a V8 race there would not be the same outcome.

Big mistake here by the FIA board

Actually Kimi crashed out. The engine was fine. So at least on a more positive note we know both Ferraris were able to finish the race (I am sure Kimi would of finished had he not crashed out) and thus hopefully their recent engine problems have been solved.

My bad, i heard on Fox Sports News the engine blew, either way where is the advantage gained by Lewis because there was none gained in the chicane cutting, then legal overtaking move on the next corner?

To be honest I don't know anymore. I think it is time to just let go and let fate handle this. Not worth the stress anymore for what it is worth.