FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[racechick]

a driver with world champion material wouldnt be stupid enough to sign with mclaren and be a 2nd driver that guarantees they will boost lewis to a world champion status.

massa should fight to stay where he is, as much as i hate to say it, ferrari have a fair driver pairing and they let their drivers race eachother unlike the 07 spec mclaren lineup, the same thing mclaren were complaining about in the early 00's they are doing now

Not the same thing

[texasmr2]

a driver with world champion material wouldnt be stupid enough to sign with mclaren and be a 2nd driver that guarantees they will boost lewis to a world champion status.

massa should fight to stay where he is, as much as i hate to say it, ferrari have a fair driver pairing and they let their drivers race eachother unlike the 07 spec mclaren lineup, the same thing mclaren were complaining about in the early 00's they are doing now

Not the same thing

Why is it never the 'same thing' when the implication is directed toward's McLaren? Not trying to start another fight amongst us but honestly that is all any other team ever hear's from the McLaren supporter's on this forum? We dont know, we have no clue, we are living in the dark age's, we are not privy to the inside information that you all seem to have and is fact, we are lamb's etc etc etc etc!

If we could get some sort of guidance from you as to what we should say or think, thus leading to less of a bitch-fest, the first AND second round is on us!

[Denthúl]

a driver with world champion material wouldnt be stupid enough to sign with mclaren and be a 2nd driver that guarantees they will boost lewis to a world champion status.

massa should fight to stay where he is, as much as i hate to say it, ferrari have a fair driver pairing and they let their drivers race eachother unlike the 07 spec mclaren lineup, the same thing mclaren were complaining about in the early 00's they are doing now

Not the same thing

Why is it never the 'same thing' when the implication is directed toward's McLaren?

You know why, Tex

[racechick]

a driver with world champion material wouldnt be stupid enough to sign with mclaren and be a 2nd driver that guarantees they will boost lewis to a world champion status.

massa should fight to stay where he is, as much as i hate to say it, ferrari have a fair driver pairing and they let their drivers race eachother unlike the 07 spec mclaren lineup, the same thing mclaren were complaining about in the early 00's they are doing now

Not the same thing

Why is it never the 'same thing' when the implication is directed toward's McLaren? Not trying to start another fight amongst us but honestly that is all any other team ever hear's from the McLaren supporter's on this forum? We dont know, we have no clue, we are living in the dark age's, we are not privy to the inside information that you all seem to have and is fact, we are lamb's etc etc etc etc!

If we could get some sort of guidance from you as to what we should say or think, thus leading to less of a bitch-fest, the first AND second round is on us!

Ive tried to explain it lots of times and Ive never called anyone a lamb. I'll try again because to me there really is a difference here. I'll try to explain it without refering to Ferrari or McLaren, that might make it easier to explain.

Scenario 1. A team decides from the outset of the season that one of its drivers will lead the challenge for the championship and the other driver must play a supporting role. If support driver is ever in a position where he could give points to the lead driver then he should do so, even if he is driving faster on that particular occassion. Lead driver will always have optimum strategy. If support driver is leading a race he can only continue and win if there is another driver between him and the lead driver,if this is not the case then support driver must find a way of relinquishing his lead even when he is driving at a much faster speed.

Scenario2. Team mates are given equal opportunity to race each other. Neither driver is a designated lead driver. If a teammate is driving markedly faster than his team mate and is in front, he will stay in front, even if he is trailing in the championship. Likewise if a driver is in front of his teammate but is racing markedly slower, then he will not impede his teammate.

Those are the two different strategies.

I believe that once one teammate can no longer realistically challenge for the title then team strategy may be looked at differently, but that is purely my own view.
Does that explain it any better??

[McLaren Fan]

Why is it never the 'same thing' when the implication is directed toward's McLaren? Not trying to start another fight amongst us but honestly that is all any other team ever hear's from the McLaren supporter's on this forum? We dont know, we have no clue, we are living in the dark age's, we are not privy to the inside information that you all seem to have and is fact, we are lamb's etc etc etc etc!

If we could get some sort of guidance from you as to what we should say or think, thus leading to less of a bitch-fest, the first AND second round is on us!

Gregg, just because you follow up an offensive comment against McLaren and it supporters with a light-hearted one does not mean that people cannot see the initial attack.

Does that explain it any better??

It's been explained to them God-knows how many times before, Anna. What makes you think they'll catch on this time?

[darwin dali]

Scenario2. If a teammate is driving markedly faster than his team mate and is in front, he will stay in front, even if he is trailing in the championship. Likewise if a driver is in front of his teammate but is racing markedly slower, then he will not impede his teammate.

How do you know that the 'second' driver who is not leading in the championship and who sees that his lead driver is behind him is NOT driving slower on purpose to make it appear as if the lead driver is faster? This would be a very conceivable pre-race agreement that doesn't require any input from the team boss during the race, nevertheless it would represent a form of team orders.

[racechick]

Scenario2. If a teammate is driving markedly faster than his team mate and is in front, he will stay in front, even if he is trailing in the championship. Likewise if a driver is in front of his teammate but is racing markedly slower, then he will not impede his teammate.

How do you know that the 'second' driver who is not leading in the championship and who sees that his lead driver is behind him is NOT driving slower on purpose to make it appear as if the lead driver is faster? This would be a very conceivable pre-race agreement that doesn't require any input from the team boss during the race, nevertheless it would represent a form of team orders.

Yes it certainly would be team orders if that driver were asked to drive the car slowly throughout the race on purpose. It would be a pretty silly team order, to request someone in a team drives the race deliberately slowly (team points.other driver might crash). If the driver was not driving slowly deliberately from the outset of the race, then it would be apparent when he started to do it by the sudden loss of speed which could not be accounted for.

[darwin dali]

Scenario2. If a teammate is driving markedly faster than his team mate and is in front, he will stay in front, even if he is trailing in the championship. Likewise if a driver is in front of his teammate but is racing markedly slower, then he will not impede his teammate.

How do you know that the 'second' driver who is not leading in the championship and who sees that his lead driver is behind him is NOT driving slower on purpose to make it appear as if the lead driver is faster? This would be a very conceivable pre-race agreement that doesn't require any input from the team boss during the race, nevertheless it would represent a form of team orders.

Yes it certainly would be team orders if that driver were asked to drive the car slowly throughout the race on purpose. It would be a pretty silly team order, to request someone in a team drives the race deliberately slowly (team points.other driver might crash). If the driver was not driving slowly deliberately from the outset of the race, then it would be apparent when he started to do it by the sudden loss of speed which could not be accounted for.

No - it would be easy to institute. After the last pit stop, IF the lead driver is behind, go slower so he can catch up with you. You can always claim the set of tires wasn't good and created some balance problems, even vibrations - the possibilities are endless.

[racechick]

Scenario2. If a teammate is driving markedly faster than his team mate and is in front, he will stay in front, even if he is trailing in the championship. Likewise if a driver is in front of his teammate but is racing markedly slower, then he will not impede his teammate.

How do you know that the 'second' driver who is not leading in the championship and who sees that his lead driver is behind him is NOT driving slower on purpose to make it appear as if the lead driver is faster? This would be a very conceivable pre-race agreement that doesn't require any input from the team boss during the race, nevertheless it would represent a form of team orders.

Yes it certainly would be team orders if that driver were asked to drive the car slowly throughout the race on purpose. It would be a pretty silly team order, to request someone in a team drives the race deliberately slowly (team points.other driver might crash). If the driver was not driving slowly deliberately from the outset of the race, then it would be apparent when he started to do it by the sudden loss of speed which could not be accounted for.

No - it would be easy to institute. After the last pit stop, IF the lead driver is behind, go slower so he can catch up with you. You can always claim the set of tires wasn't good and created some balance problems, even vibrations - the possibilities are endless.

If you go slower to let someone catch up with you then you are changing your speed to what it has been throughout the race. If both drivers are lapping consistantly, albeit not at the same speed as each other, then you cannot use this arguement

[Ferrari man 009]

on the McLaren forum there is this thread

A little birdie tells me that Massa is in talks with McLaren for next season to replace snail-man Heikki. The deal is set to be finalised by the start of the European GP.
Wait and watch this space for more info.

i do not believe it for one second but thought it would be funny to have more silly season discussion.... SILLY

but if true it would open up the seat next year at Ferrari for Alonso and Raikkonen eh?

but i do not think McLaren will ditch Heikki for Massa

It is impossible if ferrari don't want him to go as he is under contract till 2009/2010

[darwin dali]

Scenario2. If a teammate is driving markedly faster than his team mate and is in front, he will stay in front, even if he is trailing in the championship. Likewise if a driver is in front of his teammate but is racing markedly slower, then he will not impede his teammate.

How do you know that the 'second' driver who is not leading in the championship and who sees that his lead driver is behind him is NOT driving slower on purpose to make it appear as if the lead driver is faster? This would be a very conceivable pre-race agreement that doesn't require any input from the team boss during the race, nevertheless it would represent a form of team orders.

Yes it certainly would be team orders if that driver were asked to drive the car slowly throughout the race on purpose. It would be a pretty silly team order, to request someone in a team drives the race deliberately slowly (team points.other driver might crash). If the driver was not driving slowly deliberately from the outset of the race, then it would be apparent when he started to do it by the sudden loss of speed which could not be accounted for.

No - it would be easy to institute. After the last pit stop, IF the lead driver is behind, go slower so he can catch up with you. You can always claim the set of tires wasn't good and created some balance problems, even vibrations - the possibilities are endless.

If you go slower to let someone catch up with you then you are changing your speed to what it has been throughout the race. If both drivers are lapping consistantly, albeit not at the same speed as each other, then you cannot use this arguement

Huh? I just explained how it could be done: after the last pit stop the second driver 'inexplicably' loses pace because of a bad tire set causing balance problems (or any other made up explanation).

[racechick]

Scenario2. If a teammate is driving markedly faster than his team mate and is in front, he will stay in front, even if he is trailing in the championship. Likewise if a driver is in front of his teammate but is racing markedly slower, then he will not impede his teammate.

How do you know that the 'second' driver who is not leading in the championship and who sees that his lead driver is behind him is NOT driving slower on purpose to make it appear as if the lead driver is faster? This would be a very conceivable pre-race agreement that doesn't require any input from the team boss during the race, nevertheless it would represent a form of team orders.

Yes it certainly would be team orders if that driver were asked to drive the car slowly throughout the race on purpose. It would be a pretty silly team order, to request someone in a team drives the race deliberately slowly (team points.other driver might crash). If the driver was not driving slowly deliberately from the outset of the race, then it would be apparent when he started to do it by the sudden loss of speed which could not be accounted for.

No - it would be easy to institute. After the last pit stop, IF the lead driver is behind, go slower so he can catch up with you. You can always claim the set of tires wasn't good and created some balance problems, even vibrations - the possibilities are endless.

If you go slower to let someone catch up with you then you are changing your speed to what it has been throughout the race. If both drivers are lapping consistantly, albeit not at the same speed as each other, then you cannot use this arguement

Huh? I just explained how it could be done: after the last pit stop the second driver 'inexplicably' loses pace because of a bad tire set causing balance problems (or any other made up explanation).

Such a situation as you suggest is no longer allowed. If whenevr the slower driver happened to be in front he slowed down "Inexplicabley" the FIA would look at the car telemetary and other stuff,

[EwanM]

Hamilton... cough... Mclaren... cough... racechick... lol

Maybe I should cut down on the drink

Na, but to get back on to topic. Massa ain't going to Mclaren. Not in 09 anyways
Do Ron Ron would be stupid to drop Heikki for Massa. But he should look at Kubica or Rosberg

[McLaren Fan]

Hamilton... cough... Mclaren... cough... racechick... lol

Maybe I should cut down on the drink

Na, but to get back on to topic. Massa ain't going to Mclaren. Not in 09 anyways
Do Ron Ron would be stupid to drop Heikki for Massa. But he should look at Kubica or Rosberg

I like Kovalainen, but depending upon how good the second half of his season is for him, questions could still exist about how good he really is. Rosberg won't be moving anywhere next year, but Kubica is still a free agent, and a damn good driver (possibly better than Rosberg, for he has made some gaffes this season and hardly put his rookie teammate, Nakajima, in the shade).

[EwanM]

Hamilton... cough... Mclaren... cough... racechick... lol

Maybe I should cut down on the drink

Na, but to get back on to topic. Massa ain't going to Mclaren. Not in 09 anyways
Do Ron Ron would be stupid to drop Heikki for Massa. But he should look at Kubica or Rosberg

I like Kovalainen, but depending upon how good the second half of his season is for him, questions could still exist about how good he really is. Rosberg won't be moving anywhere next year, but Kubica is still a free agent, and a damn good driver (possibly better than Rosberg, for he has made some gaffes this season and hardly put his rookie teammate, Nakajima, in the shade).

I think Kubica will be a BMW driver next year again. If they don't take up the option they would be stupid.

Surely it's gonna be Ham and Heik next year in the Silvercars?