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[EwanM]

What do you call Heikki's drive? that would be classed as up the field if you ask me started 10th finished 4th. Great pace for sure fantastic

Hamilton, without his debatable drive-through penalty, would also have come 6th, maybe even 5th.

There was a debatable one too? I thought he only got one for cutting a chicane.

I thought he was well past Vettel going into the first part of the chicane, as evidenced by Hamilton being able to turn in fairly normally. If the FIA are so convinced that Hamilton was guilty, why don't they release the exterior footage of the maneuver to bring an end to any doubt?

...You do realise it's very rare for FOM to release additional footage? It's not like every incident that receives a penalty gets coverage from all angles released after the race for people outside of the decision-making process to over-analyse. You may well think there's some ludicrous anti-McLaren conspiracy, but there's no evidence of that which is not subjective. In fact, I've seen plenty of totally unfair decisions in McLaren's favour over the past couple of years.

In short, the reason they don't release the footage if they're so sure he was guilty is the fact that they don't need your approval to do anything. Especially since you clearly don't even understand why he was penalised. Last time I'm telling you people:

He was penalised because in order to make his pass stick without crashing he had to cut the chicane. That means there was no racetrack on which to execute the full extent of the pass, thus it was illegal and penalised. Don't even try and say that the fact he was avoiding a crash justifies it because the point is he should not have been in that situation.

Edit: You can count that as a vote against the idea the FIA are picking on McLaren Ewan

Aye, I can't say the FIA single out Mclaren. Look at the Renault damper systems and what not in 06 - Alonso in Monza.

That's part of their pro-Ferrari agenda.

God get over it Ferrari have been hit with penaltys as much as any other team - Malaysia '99 anyone?? that few millimeters cost them the championship that year.
If Mclaren are as good as they can be this year it wouldnt matter if the FIA were biased, they would rise above it and win anyway

Formula One is a sport in which the difference between success and failure is fractions of a second. McLaren haven't always got it right, especially since 2001, but there's no good in denying that the FIA is awash with corruption and inconsistency, which has cost Ayrton Senna a drivers' title, McLaren two constructors' titles and almost cost Renault the 2006 constructors' and drivers' titles.

And seriously dented Villeneuve and William's title bids in 1997.
Dnt agree with the Senna thing tho. Mclaren constructors titles possibly.

[McLaren Fan]

What do you call Heikki's drive? that would be classed as up the field if you ask me started 10th finished 4th. Great pace for sure fantastic

Hamilton, without his debatable drive-through penalty, would also have come 6th, maybe even 5th.

There was a debatable one too? I thought he only got one for cutting a chicane.

I thought he was well past Vettel going into the first part of the chicane, as evidenced by Hamilton being able to turn in fairly normally. If the FIA are so convinced that Hamilton was guilty, why don't they release the exterior footage of the maneuver to bring an end to any doubt?

...You do realise it's very rare for FOM to release additional footage? It's not like every incident that receives a penalty gets coverage from all angles released after the race for people outside of the decision-making process to over-analyse. You may well think there's some ludicrous anti-McLaren conspiracy, but there's no evidence of that which is not subjective. In fact, I've seen plenty of totally unfair decisions in McLaren's favour over the past couple of years.

In short, the reason they don't release the footage if they're so sure he was guilty is the fact that they don't need your approval to do anything. Especially since you clearly don't even understand why he was penalised. Last time I'm telling you people:

He was penalised because in order to make his pass stick without crashing he had to cut the chicane. That means there was no racetrack on which to execute the full extent of the pass, thus it was illegal and penalised. Don't even try and say that the fact he was avoiding a crash justifies it because the point is he should not have been in that situation.

Edit: You can count that as a vote against the idea the FIA are picking on McLaren Ewan

Aye, I can't say the FIA single out Mclaren. Look at the Renault damper systems and what not in 06 - Alonso in Monza.

That's part of their pro-Ferrari agenda.

God get over it Ferrari have been hit with penaltys as much as any other team - Malaysia '99 anyone?? that few millimeters cost them the championship that year.
If Mclaren are as good as they can be this year it wouldnt matter if the FIA were biased, they would rise above it and win anyway

Formula One is a sport in which the difference between success and failure is fractions of a second. McLaren haven't always got it right, especially since 2001, but there's no good in denying that the FIA is awash with corruption and inconsistency, which has cost Ayrton Senna a drivers' title, McLaren two constructors' titles and almost cost Renault the 2006 constructors' and drivers' titles.

And seriously dented Villeneuve and William's title bids in 1997.
Dnt agree with the Senna thing tho. Mclaren constructors titles possibly.

Villeneuve was rightly penalised for repeatedly driving past yellow flags without slowing down. He was warned not to do it, but he continued, so his penalty was justly deserved. How you can't agree with the 'Senna thing' is astounding; Balestre himself said he was biased towards Prost after Mosley took over as President of the sport in the 1994.

[EwanM]

What do you call Heikki's drive? that would be classed as up the field if you ask me started 10th finished 4th. Great pace for sure fantastic

Hamilton, without his debatable drive-through penalty, would also have come 6th, maybe even 5th.

There was a debatable one too? I thought he only got one for cutting a chicane.

I thought he was well past Vettel going into the first part of the chicane, as evidenced by Hamilton being able to turn in fairly normally. If the FIA are so convinced that Hamilton was guilty, why don't they release the exterior footage of the maneuver to bring an end to any doubt?

...You do realise it's very rare for FOM to release additional footage? It's not like every incident that receives a penalty gets coverage from all angles released after the race for people outside of the decision-making process to over-analyse. You may well think there's some ludicrous anti-McLaren conspiracy, but there's no evidence of that which is not subjective. In fact, I've seen plenty of totally unfair decisions in McLaren's favour over the past couple of years.

In short, the reason they don't release the footage if they're so sure he was guilty is the fact that they don't need your approval to do anything. Especially since you clearly don't even understand why he was penalised. Last time I'm telling you people:

He was penalised because in order to make his pass stick without crashing he had to cut the chicane. That means there was no racetrack on which to execute the full extent of the pass, thus it was illegal and penalised. Don't even try and say that the fact he was avoiding a crash justifies it because the point is he should not have been in that situation.

Edit: You can count that as a vote against the idea the FIA are picking on McLaren Ewan

Aye, I can't say the FIA single out Mclaren. Look at the Renault damper systems and what not in 06 - Alonso in Monza.

That's part of their pro-Ferrari agenda.

God get over it Ferrari have been hit with penaltys as much as any other team - Malaysia '99 anyone?? that few millimeters cost them the championship that year.
If Mclaren are as good as they can be this year it wouldnt matter if the FIA were biased, they would rise above it and win anyway

Formula One is a sport in which the difference between success and failure is fractions of a second. McLaren haven't always got it right, especially since 2001, but there's no good in denying that the FIA is awash with corruption and inconsistency, which has cost Ayrton Senna a drivers' title, McLaren two constructors' titles and almost cost Renault the 2006 constructors' and drivers' titles.

And seriously dented Villeneuve and William's title bids in 1997.
Dnt agree with the Senna thing tho. Mclaren constructors titles possibly.

Villeneuve was rightly penalised for repeatedly driving past yellow flags without slowing down. He was warned not to do it, but he continued, so his penalty was justly deserved. How you can't agree with the 'Senna thing' is astounding; Balestre himself said he was biased towards Prost after Mosley took over as President of the sport in the 1994.

Villeneuve was told yes, but he wasn't the only driver to repeatably do it, yet not get penalised.

Balestre was overly bias, Moseley and the FIA are pretty corrupt themselves to.
I just feel that Senna could have easily been excluded in 1990 if Baltrese had been so pro - Prost, but he didn't. Now we all know about the pole position and so forth, but Senna drove Prost off the track - to get back at him or not.
As shown in 1997, Schumacher tried to take out Jacques. He got penalised.

[EwanM]

I don't particularly want to discuss Senna V Prost and everything concerned with that. I think we're at opposite ends of opinion over 1989. Best to leave it that way.

In all honesty the FIA may be picking on Mclaren and have a very Pro-Ferrari objective. But Mclaren isn't singled out, it seems to be more of a collective problem.

People need to put loyalties aside for this one and let it pass, it's not title deciding (yet) and we're not even half way through the season.
Hamilton can still be champion.

[darwin dali]

funny,

if it takes a super computer to work out what possie Hamilton would have finished if not for the drive through how is darwin able to suggest that he wouldnt have scored points... its a polar outlook DD put forward. stepping on your own feet really.

Maybe, just MAYBE, I didn't say what you claim I said?

According to Steve Matchett, because the pitlane is so short in Magny-Cours, LH only lost around 12 seconds with his drive through penalty. Doubt that would have gotten him too many points...

[darwin dali]

Mclaren are much the architects of thier own downfall in recent years. It's very sad to see a team like this self destruct

Self destruct? That's a tad too dramatic

[darwin dali]

A year later, in 1999, McLaren were robbed off the constructors' title, as Ferrari were allowed to keep the points they scored in the Malaysian Grand Prix, even though the cars had oversized parts.

Ah, the old myth again!
The measuring equipment the stewards used in Malaysia was sub-standard and the measurements were faulty. Subsequent measurements clearly showed that the parts were within the FIA regs and tolerances.

[EwanM]

A year later, in 1999, McLaren were robbed off the constructors' title, as Ferrari were allowed to keep the points they scored in the Malaysian Grand Prix, even though the cars had oversized parts.

Ah, the old myth again!
The measuring equipment the stewards used in Malaysia was sub-standard and the measurements were faulty. Subsequent measurements clearly showed that the parts were within the FIA regs and tolerances.

Twisting the knife?

[Jensonb]

I sincerely hope that that post was not directed to me, given that I'm about the only McLaren supporter to have made any serious comment on this thread. I've been following McLaren for a hell of a long time, through the team's good times and the rough periods, such as the mid-90s slump and the completely shambolic 2001-2004 period. I've dished out a hell of a lot of criticism to the team as well as heaped on praise on them. But I've also see McLaren suffer at the hands of Mosley with his personal vendetta against Dennis, get "paid back" for being in favour of a breakaway series, and fall victim to the FIA's flawed rules and inconsistent decisions and the Ferrari's close links with the FIA. The last two things mentioned there has happened to other team as well, such as Renault in 2006. It's so frustrating and saddening to see the sport and team you care about get treated like crap. Hamilton's ten-place grid penalty was well deserved, his drive-through penalty I'm not so certain, but Kovalainen's penalty was a complete joke.

McLaren Fan, the fact that you do speak sense on many occasions does not preclude you from being just as wrong as RC on Hamilton's drive-through penalty.

[AKR]

Here is a solution. First get rid of Ron Dennis and secondly rename the McLaren team to the Mercedes team and then there wont be no more cheating Ron Dennis to pick on nor a McLaren team for that matter. It will be a German Mercedes team and with no need to have to pick on them. Then the problem will be solved and Mercedes will be able to concentrate on beating both Ferrari and BMW-Sauber.

so what youre saying is you dislike British

Never..................................

[AKR]

Here is a solution. First get rid of Ron Dennis and secondly rename the McLaren team to the Mercedes team and then there wont be no more cheating Ron Dennis to pick on nor a McLaren team for that matter. It will be a German Mercedes team and with no need to have to pick on them. Then the problem will be solved and Mercedes will be able to concentrate on beating both Ferrari and BMW-Sauber.

It is well known fact that cheaters are always first to point their fingers on other people...

Keep some dignity, AKR...

Exactly. Ferrari's slate is hardly clean

How bad is Fiat's financial problems nowadays anyways?

It can't be bad given Fiat is owned by the Agnelli familly who also own Juventus and well have plenty of money to go buy the best team just like Ferrari.

[7UpJordan]

A year later, in 1999, McLaren were robbed off the constructors' title, as Ferrari were allowed to keep the points they scored in the Malaysian Grand Prix, even though the cars had oversized parts.

Ah, the old myth again!
The measuring equipment the stewards used in Malaysia was sub-standard and the measurements were faulty. Subsequent measurements clearly showed that the parts were within the FIA regs and tolerances.

They must have been using one of those coloured plastic 6 inch rulers that 6 year olds use.

[McLaren Fan]

I don't particularly want to discuss Senna V Prost and everything concerned with that. I think we're at opposite ends of opinion over 1989. Best to leave it that way.

I don't see any debate on the issue. Prost admitted he turned into Senna, and Balestre admitted in 1994 that he screwed Senna to benefit his compatriot.

[EwanM]

I don't particularly want to discuss Senna V Prost and everything concerned with that. I think we're at opposite ends of opinion over 1989. Best to leave it that way.

I don't see any debate on the issue. Prost admitted he turned into Senna, and Balestre admitted in 1994 that he screwed Senna to benefit his compatriot.

Well whether Prosts actions were justified or not.

[McLaren Fan]

I don't particularly want to discuss Senna V Prost and everything concerned with that. I think we're at opposite ends of opinion over 1989. Best to leave it that way.

I don't see any debate on the issue. Prost admitted he turned into Senna, and Balestre admitted in 1994 that he screwed Senna to benefit his compatriot.

Well whether Prosts actions were justified or not.

I see what you mean now.