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[McLaren Fan]

McLaren-Mercedes were a shambles from 2001 to 2004, with some internal political problems, plagued with poor reliability, underpowered engines, glitched electronics and some aerodynamic issues, so the team have nobody to blame but themselves. Even since then, the odd poor strategy call has crept in. However, even Ferrari with Ross Brawn at the helm never got their judgment calls right all the time; no team is perfect. In 1998, the FIA got involved and banned McLaren's rear-wheel braking system, which was clearly in the rules. Thankfully, the MP4-13 was so damn good, the team weren't affected too badly. A year later, in 1999, McLaren were robbed off the constructors' title, as Ferrari were allowed to keep the points they scored in the Malaysian Grand Prix, even though the cars had oversized parts. Then, in 2006, McLaren's chances were wrecked with the FIA's indecision over whether or not to allow tyre changes, so the MP4-21 was kinder than needed to be on its tyres, so there were issues warming them up etc. Without going into the spy scandals in too much detail, mistakes were made at McLaren last year, and, with the benefit of hindsight, a few things could have been done differently, but Ferrari and the FIA ganged up to shaft McLaren. So, yeah, McLaren have made some errors, but the team are certainly down two titles thanks to the FIA's behaviour.

[EwanM]

Here is a solution. First get rid of Ron Dennis and secondly rename the McLaren team to the Mercedes team and then there wont be no more cheating Ron Dennis to pick on nor a McLaren team for that matter. It will be a German Mercedes team and with no need to have to pick on them. Then the problem will be solved and Mercedes will be able to concentrate on beating both Ferrari and BMW-Sauber.

It is well known fact that cheaters are always first to point their fingers on other people...

Keep some dignity, AKR...

Exactly. Ferrari's slate is hardly clean

How bad is Fiat's financial problems nowadays anyways?

[McLaren Fan]

Here is a solution. First get rid of Ron Dennis and secondly rename the McLaren team to the Mercedes team and then there wont be no more cheating Ron Dennis to pick on nor a McLaren team for that matter. It will be a German Mercedes team and with no need to have to pick on them. Then the problem will be solved and Mercedes will be able to concentrate on beating both Ferrari and BMW-Sauber.

What did Bruce McLaren ever do to you? How would you feel if Ferrari were re-named FIAT?

McLaren may not be the privateer team they were before c.1980, but the team is not completely owned and bankrolled by a automotive giant as Ferrari are. It's, therefore, slightly unfair to say that McLaren are worthy of being renamed Mercedes at the minute.

[EwanM]

McLaren-Mercedes were a shambles from 2001 to 2004, with some internal political problems, plagued with poor reliability, underpowered engines, glitched electronics and some aerodynamic issues, so the team have nobody to blame but themselves. Even since then, the odd poor strategy call has crept in. However, even Ferrari with Ross Brawn at the helm never got their judgment calls right all the time; no team is perfect. In 1998, the FIA got involved and banned McLaren's rear-wheel braking system, which was clearly in the rules. Thankfully, the MP4-13 was so damn good, the team weren't affected too badly. A year later, in 1999, McLaren were robbed off the constructors' title, as Ferrari were allowed to keep the points they scored in the Malaysian Grand Prix, even though the cars had oversized parts. Then, in 2006, McLaren's chances were wrecked with the FIA's indecision over whether or not to allow tyre changes, so the MP4-21 was kinder than needed to be on its tyres, so there were issues warming them up etc. Without going into the spy scandals in too much detail, mistakes were made at McLaren last year, and, with the benefit of hindsight, a few things could have been done differently, but Ferrari and the FIA ganged up to shaft McLaren. So, yeah, McLaren have made some errors, but the team are certainly down two titles thanks to the FIA's behaviour.

Alot of those reasons are true, but the team itself are largely responsible for their barren years. 2001-2004 The mercedes engines was some 20bhp down on the Ferrari and BMW power plants. (50 bhp by the end of that period to BMW) It was not helped by Paul Morgan's death, but on top of that you had conflicts between Ilmor and Mercedes. To try to catch up Mercedes took risks and they didn't pay off, resulting in a number of engine faults.
Whitmarsh also admitted Mclaren's attempts to get to grips with the new electronics were not "good enough" and that they were "Highly embrassed" by their launch control.

What about the MP4-18 Debacle?

Furthermore you had Newey leaving for Jaguar (only to be talked out of it with a last minute pay hike which destablised the company. Plus the construction of the new HQ.


Mclaren are mainly owned by Mercedes and part Dubai?

[McLaren Fan]

McLaren-Mercedes were a shambles from 2001 to 2004, with some internal political problems, plagued with poor reliability, underpowered engines, glitched electronics and some aerodynamic issues, so the team have nobody to blame but themselves. Even since then, the odd poor strategy call has crept in. However, even Ferrari with Ross Brawn at the helm never got their judgment calls right all the time; no team is perfect. In 1998, the FIA got involved and banned McLaren's rear-wheel braking system, which was clearly in the rules. Thankfully, the MP4-13 was so damn good, the team weren't affected too badly. A year later, in 1999, McLaren were robbed off the constructors' title, as Ferrari were allowed to keep the points they scored in the Malaysian Grand Prix, even though the cars had oversized parts. Then, in 2006, McLaren's chances were wrecked with the FIA's indecision over whether or not to allow tyre changes, so the MP4-21 was kinder than needed to be on its tyres, so there were issues warming them up etc. Without going into the spy scandals in too much detail, mistakes were made at McLaren last year, and, with the benefit of hindsight, a few things could have been done differently, but Ferrari and the FIA ganged up to shaft McLaren. So, yeah, McLaren have made some errors, but the team are certainly down two titles thanks to the FIA's behaviour.

Alot of those reasons are true, but the team itself are largely responsible for their barren years. 2001-2004 The mercedes engines was some 20bhp down on the Ferrari and BMW power plants. (50 bhp by the end of that period to BMW) It was not helped by Paul Morgan's death, but on top of that you had conflicts between Ilmor and Mercedes. To try to catch up Mercedes took risks and they didn't pay off, resulting in a number of engine faults.
Whitmarsh also admitted Mclaren's attempts to get to grips with the new electronics were not "good enough" and that they were "Highly embrassed" by their launch control.

What about the MP4-18 Debacle?

Furthermore you had Newey leaving for Jaguar (only to be talked out of it with a last minute pay hike which destablised the company. Plus the construction of the new HQ.


Mclaren are mainly owned by Mercedes and part Dubai?

All of that would come under: 'McLaren-Mercedes were a shambles from 2001 to 2004, with some internal political problems, plagued with poor reliability, underpowered engines, glitched electronics and some aerodynamic issues, so the team have nobody to blame but themselves. Even since then, the odd poor strategy call has crept in'.

[EwanM]

McLaren-Mercedes were a shambles from 2001 to 2004, with some internal political problems, plagued with poor reliability, underpowered engines, glitched electronics and some aerodynamic issues, so the team have nobody to blame but themselves. Even since then, the odd poor strategy call has crept in. However, even Ferrari with Ross Brawn at the helm never got their judgment calls right all the time; no team is perfect. In 1998, the FIA got involved and banned McLaren's rear-wheel braking system, which was clearly in the rules. Thankfully, the MP4-13 was so damn good, the team weren't affected too badly. A year later, in 1999, McLaren were robbed off the constructors' title, as Ferrari were allowed to keep the points they scored in the Malaysian Grand Prix, even though the cars had oversized parts. Then, in 2006, McLaren's chances were wrecked with the FIA's indecision over whether or not to allow tyre changes, so the MP4-21 was kinder than needed to be on its tyres, so there were issues warming them up etc. Without going into the spy scandals in too much detail, mistakes were made at McLaren last year, and, with the benefit of hindsight, a few things could have been done differently, but Ferrari and the FIA ganged up to shaft McLaren. So, yeah, McLaren have made some errors, but the team are certainly down two titles thanks to the FIA's behaviour.

Alot of those reasons are true, but the team itself are largely responsible for their barren years. 2001-2004 The mercedes engines was some 20bhp down on the Ferrari and BMW power plants. (50 bhp by the end of that period to BMW) It was not helped by Paul Morgan's death, but on top of that you had conflicts between Ilmor and Mercedes. To try to catch up Mercedes took risks and they didn't pay off, resulting in a number of engine faults.
Whitmarsh also admitted Mclaren's attempts to get to grips with the new electronics were not "good enough" and that they were "Highly embrassed" by their launch control.

What about the MP4-18 Debacle?

Furthermore you had Newey leaving for Jaguar (only to be talked out of it with a last minute pay hike which destablised the company. Plus the construction of the new HQ.


Mclaren are mainly owned by Mercedes and part Dubai?

All of that would come under: 'McLaren-Mercedes were a shambles from 2001 to 2004, with some internal political problems, plagued with poor reliability, underpowered engines, glitched electronics and some aerodynamic issues, so the team have nobody to blame but themselves. Even since then, the odd poor strategy call has crept in'.

Aye pretty much, thought i'd expand though

So let's us vote, how many people actually think the FIA are picking on Mclaren?

[Jensonb]

What do you call Heikki's drive? that would be classed as up the field if you ask me started 10th finished 4th. Great pace for sure fantastic

Hamilton, without his debatable drive-through penalty, would also have come 6th, maybe even 5th.

There was a debatable one too? I thought he only got one for cutting a chicane.

I thought he was well past Vettel going into the first part of the chicane, as evidenced by Hamilton being able to turn in fairly normally. If the FIA are so convinced that Hamilton was guilty, why don't they release the exterior footage of the maneuver to bring an end to any doubt?

...You do realise it's very rare for FOM to release additional footage? It's not like every incident that receives a penalty gets coverage from all angles released after the race for people outside of the decision-making process to over-analyse. You may well think there's some ludicrous anti-McLaren conspiracy, but there's no evidence of that which is not subjective. In fact, I've seen plenty of totally unfair decisions in McLaren's favour over the past couple of years.

In short, the reason they don't release the footage if they're so sure he was guilty is the fact that they don't need your approval to do anything. Especially since you clearly don't even understand why he was penalised. Last time I'm telling you people:

He was penalised because in order to make his pass stick without crashing he had to cut the chicane. That means there was no racetrack on which to execute the full extent of the pass, thus it was illegal and penalised. Don't even try and say that the fact he was avoiding a crash justifies it because the point is he should not have been in that situation.

Edit: You can count that as a vote against the idea the FIA are picking on McLaren Ewan

[EwanM]

What do you call Heikki's drive? that would be classed as up the field if you ask me started 10th finished 4th. Great pace for sure fantastic

Hamilton, without his debatable drive-through penalty, would also have come 6th, maybe even 5th.

There was a debatable one too? I thought he only got one for cutting a chicane.

I thought he was well past Vettel going into the first part of the chicane, as evidenced by Hamilton being able to turn in fairly normally. If the FIA are so convinced that Hamilton was guilty, why don't they release the exterior footage of the maneuver to bring an end to any doubt?

...You do realise it's very rare for FOM to release additional footage? It's not like every incident that receives a penalty gets coverage from all angles released after the race for people outside of the decision-making process to over-analyse. You may well think there's some ludicrous anti-McLaren conspiracy, but there's no evidence of that which is not subjective. In fact, I've seen plenty of totally unfair decisions in McLaren's favour over the past couple of years.

In short, the reason they don't release the footage if they're so sure he was guilty is the fact that they don't need your approval to do anything. Especially since you clearly don't even understand why he was penalised. Last time I'm telling you people:

He was penalised because in order to make his pass stick without crashing he had to cut the chicane. That means there was no racetrack on which to execute the full extent of the pass, thus it was illegal and penalised. Don't even try and say that the fact he was avoiding a crash justifies it because the point is he should not have been in that situation.

Edit: You can count that as a vote against the idea the FIA are picking on McLaren Ewan

Aye, I can't say the FIA single out Mclaren. Look at the Renault damper systems and what not in 06 - Alonso in Monza.

[McLaren Fan]

What do you call Heikki's drive? that would be classed as up the field if you ask me started 10th finished 4th. Great pace for sure fantastic

Hamilton, without his debatable drive-through penalty, would also have come 6th, maybe even 5th.

There was a debatable one too? I thought he only got one for cutting a chicane.

I thought he was well past Vettel going into the first part of the chicane, as evidenced by Hamilton being able to turn in fairly normally. If the FIA are so convinced that Hamilton was guilty, why don't they release the exterior footage of the maneuver to bring an end to any doubt?

...You do realise it's very rare for FOM to release additional footage? It's not like every incident that receives a penalty gets coverage from all angles released after the race for people outside of the decision-making process to over-analyse. You may well think there's some ludicrous anti-McLaren conspiracy, but there's no evidence of that which is not subjective. In fact, I've seen plenty of totally unfair decisions in McLaren's favour over the past couple of years.

In short, the reason they don't release the footage if they're so sure he was guilty is the fact that they don't need your approval to do anything. Especially since you clearly don't even understand why he was penalised. Last time I'm telling you people:

He was penalised because in order to make his pass stick without crashing he had to cut the chicane. That means there was no racetrack on which to execute the full extent of the pass, thus it was illegal and penalised. Don't even try and say that the fact he was avoiding a crash justifies it because the point is he should not have been in that situation.

Edit: You can count that as a vote against the idea the FIA are picking on McLaren Ewan

Aye, I can't say the FIA single out Mclaren. Look at the Renault damper systems and what not in 06 - Alonso in Monza.

That's part of their pro-Ferrari agenda.

[Kiwi_Chris]

The FIA have never been overly harsh on a team before, why would they start with Mclaren? I belive this talk is just Mclaren having a less than steller year ( god knows its better than 94-96) and 'fans' jumping on the fact that Mclaren got nailed by the FIA over the spy issue.
Hamilton hit Kimi in Canada and deserved the penalty, He cut the chicane in France and was handed a fair penalty. Mclaren even admitted that yes Heikki did impede Webber.
If you look at a team with such rose tinted glasses that you cant see the mistakes, or the problems that the team creates itself then in my opinoin you are just there for the highs and i wonder how many Mclaren 'fans' out there would still support them if they slip down the grid again (and yea they will F1 is a cyclic thing all teams rise and fall)

[McLaren Fan]

The FIA have never been overly harsh on a team before, why would they start with Mclaren? I belive this talk is just Mclaren having a less than steller year ( god knows its better than 94-96) and 'fans' jumping on the fact that Mclaren got nailed by the FIA over the spy issue.
Hamilton hit Kimi in Canada and deserved the penalty, He cut the chicane in France and was handed a fair penalty. Mclaren even admitted that yes Heikki did impede Webber.
If you look at a team with such rose tinted glasses that you cant see the mistakes, or the problems that the team creates itself then in my opinoin you are just there for the highs and i wonder how many Mclaren 'fans' out there would still support them if they slip down the grid again (and yea they will F1 is a cyclic thing all teams rise and fall)

I sincerely hope that that post was not directed to me, given that I'm about the only McLaren supporter to have made any serious comment on this thread. I've been following McLaren for a hell of a long time, through the team's good times and the rough periods, such as the mid-90s slump and the completely shambolic 2001-2004 period. I've dished out a hell of a lot of criticism to the team as well as heaped on praise on them. But I've also see McLaren suffer at the hands of Mosley with his personal vendetta against Dennis, get "paid back" for being in favour of a breakaway series, and fall victim to the FIA's flawed rules and inconsistent decisions and the Ferrari's close links with the FIA. The last two things mentioned there has happened to other team as well, such as Renault in 2006. It's so frustrating and saddening to see the sport and team you care about get treated like crap. Hamilton's ten-place grid penalty was well deserved, his drive-through penalty I'm not so certain, but Kovalainen's penalty was a complete joke.

[Kiwi_Chris]

What do you call Heikki's drive? that would be classed as up the field if you ask me started 10th finished 4th. Great pace for sure fantastic

Hamilton, without his debatable drive-through penalty, would also have come 6th, maybe even 5th.

There was a debatable one too? I thought he only got one for cutting a chicane.

I thought he was well past Vettel going into the first part of the chicane, as evidenced by Hamilton being able to turn in fairly normally. If the FIA are so convinced that Hamilton was guilty, why don't they release the exterior footage of the maneuver to bring an end to any doubt?

...You do realise it's very rare for FOM to release additional footage? It's not like every incident that receives a penalty gets coverage from all angles released after the race for people outside of the decision-making process to over-analyse. You may well think there's some ludicrous anti-McLaren conspiracy, but there's no evidence of that which is not subjective. In fact, I've seen plenty of totally unfair decisions in McLaren's favour over the past couple of years.

In short, the reason they don't release the footage if they're so sure he was guilty is the fact that they don't need your approval to do anything. Especially since you clearly don't even understand why he was penalised. Last time I'm telling you people:

He was penalised because in order to make his pass stick without crashing he had to cut the chicane. That means there was no racetrack on which to execute the full extent of the pass, thus it was illegal and penalised. Don't even try and say that the fact he was avoiding a crash justifies it because the point is he should not have been in that situation.

Edit: You can count that as a vote against the idea the FIA are picking on McLaren Ewan

Aye, I can't say the FIA single out Mclaren. Look at the Renault damper systems and what not in 06 - Alonso in Monza.

That's part of their pro-Ferrari agenda.

God get over it Ferrari have been hit with penaltys as much as any other team - Malaysia '99 anyone?? that few millimeters cost them the championship that year.
If Mclaren are as good as they can be this year it wouldnt matter if the FIA were biased, they would rise above it and win anyway

[EwanM]

What do you call Heikki's drive? that would be classed as up the field if you ask me started 10th finished 4th. Great pace for sure fantastic

Hamilton, without his debatable drive-through penalty, would also have come 6th, maybe even 5th.

There was a debatable one too? I thought he only got one for cutting a chicane.

I thought he was well past Vettel going into the first part of the chicane, as evidenced by Hamilton being able to turn in fairly normally. If the FIA are so convinced that Hamilton was guilty, why don't they release the exterior footage of the maneuver to bring an end to any doubt?

...You do realise it's very rare for FOM to release additional footage? It's not like every incident that receives a penalty gets coverage from all angles released after the race for people outside of the decision-making process to over-analyse. You may well think there's some ludicrous anti-McLaren conspiracy, but there's no evidence of that which is not subjective. In fact, I've seen plenty of totally unfair decisions in McLaren's favour over the past couple of years.

In short, the reason they don't release the footage if they're so sure he was guilty is the fact that they don't need your approval to do anything. Especially since you clearly don't even understand why he was penalised. Last time I'm telling you people:

He was penalised because in order to make his pass stick without crashing he had to cut the chicane. That means there was no racetrack on which to execute the full extent of the pass, thus it was illegal and penalised. Don't even try and say that the fact he was avoiding a crash justifies it because the point is he should not have been in that situation.

Edit: You can count that as a vote against the idea the FIA are picking on McLaren Ewan

Aye, I can't say the FIA single out Mclaren. Look at the Renault damper systems and what not in 06 - Alonso in Monza.

That's part of their pro-Ferrari agenda.

God get over it Ferrari have been hit with penaltys as much as any other team - Malaysia '99 anyone?? that few millimeters cost them the championship that year.
If Mclaren are as good as they can be this year it wouldnt matter if the FIA were biased, they would rise above it and win anyway

No that penalty got reversed.

[McLaren Fan]

What do you call Heikki's drive? that would be classed as up the field if you ask me started 10th finished 4th. Great pace for sure fantastic

Hamilton, without his debatable drive-through penalty, would also have come 6th, maybe even 5th.

There was a debatable one too? I thought he only got one for cutting a chicane.

I thought he was well past Vettel going into the first part of the chicane, as evidenced by Hamilton being able to turn in fairly normally. If the FIA are so convinced that Hamilton was guilty, why don't they release the exterior footage of the maneuver to bring an end to any doubt?

...You do realise it's very rare for FOM to release additional footage? It's not like every incident that receives a penalty gets coverage from all angles released after the race for people outside of the decision-making process to over-analyse. You may well think there's some ludicrous anti-McLaren conspiracy, but there's no evidence of that which is not subjective. In fact, I've seen plenty of totally unfair decisions in McLaren's favour over the past couple of years.

In short, the reason they don't release the footage if they're so sure he was guilty is the fact that they don't need your approval to do anything. Especially since you clearly don't even understand why he was penalised. Last time I'm telling you people:

He was penalised because in order to make his pass stick without crashing he had to cut the chicane. That means there was no racetrack on which to execute the full extent of the pass, thus it was illegal and penalised. Don't even try and say that the fact he was avoiding a crash justifies it because the point is he should not have been in that situation.

Edit: You can count that as a vote against the idea the FIA are picking on McLaren Ewan

Aye, I can't say the FIA single out Mclaren. Look at the Renault damper systems and what not in 06 - Alonso in Monza.

That's part of their pro-Ferrari agenda.

God get over it Ferrari have been hit with penaltys as much as any other team - Malaysia '99 anyone?? that few millimeters cost them the championship that year.
If Mclaren are as good as they can be this year it wouldnt matter if the FIA were biased, they would rise above it and win anyway

Formula One is a sport in which the difference between success and failure is fractions of a second. McLaren haven't always got it right, especially since 2001, but there's no good in denying that the FIA is awash with corruption and inconsistency, which has cost Ayrton Senna a drivers' title, McLaren two constructors' titles and almost cost Renault the 2006 constructors' and drivers' titles.

[racechick]

Yes I most definately think the FIA pick on McLaren. Why wouldnt the teams come out against Mosley? Fear of reprisals. They'd seen it all before.