FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

Discuss the sport you love with other motorsport fans

Formula One related discussion.
#44028
I'm not wanting to get involved in this, but just wanna ask Mclaren Fan about his point on Ron Dennis and the Monaco GP. Surely he employed tht tactic on Senna and Prost in 1988. Now I know Prost played some mind games and got to Aryton, but why did Senna see the need to push if that was the agreement? Could he not trust the team?

Senna and Prost were great rivals, so I daresay there was some silly beggars from both drivers. The race was as good as over, so Dennis was probably looking forward to seeing both his drivers on the podium. Prost, slightly cheekily, decided he would put in a fast lap, because his desire to win the Grand Prix was greater than his desire to obey team orders, and he had nothing to lose. After Prost's fast lap, Senna freaked out, and so put the hammer down again, even though he was still the best part of a minute in the lead. Dennis (I think) told him over the radio that it was okay, Prost couldn't catch him, so he was to continue to take it easy. Senna must not have been convinced or was still distracted enough to crash the car. I guess it's one of the flaws of having the two top drivers in your team, allowing them to compete, and having to deal with their nasty tricks on one another. Going back to the original issue, however, it shows why McLaren are right to have the agreement, albeit tough to enforce sometimes, for last year, had Alonso and Hamilton raced one another, it would not have surprised me to see at least one of them crash. The difference between 1988 and 2007 was that Senna blamed himself for not winning, whilst Hamilton blamed the team for own underperformance.


Yeah, thats the way I see 1988 too, Alonso and Hamilton racing each other would have been a disaster in 2007. Looking ahead to next weekend do you feel Hamiltons gonna be able to win? Will it be a case of winning ir or binning it, I think his slow down call was a gd move by Ron cause when he showed pace Hamilton's style was scary. If him and Alonso has pushed each other, I think Hamilton wouldn't have finished.
#44029
I'm not wanting to get involved in this, but just wanna ask Mclaren Fan about his point on Ron Dennis and the Monaco GP. Surely he employed tht tactic on Senna and Prost in 1988. Now I know Prost played some mind games and got to Aryton, but why did Senna see the need to push if that was the agreement? Could he not trust the team?

Senna and Prost were great rivals, so I daresay there was some silly beggars from both drivers. The race was as good as over, so Dennis was probably looking forward to seeing both his drivers on the podium. Prost, slightly cheekily, decided he would put in a fast lap, because his desire to win the Grand Prix was greater than his desire to obey team orders, and he had nothing to lose. After Prost's fast lap, Senna freaked out, and so put the hammer down again, even though he was still the best part of a minute in the lead. Dennis (I think) told him over the radio that it was okay, Prost couldn't catch him, so he was to continue to take it easy. Senna must not have been convinced or was still distracted enough to crash the car. I guess it's one of the flaws of having the two top drivers in your team, allowing them to compete, and having to deal with their nasty tricks on one another. Going back to the original issue, however, it shows why McLaren are right to have the agreement, albeit tough to enforce sometimes, for last year, had Alonso and Hamilton raced one another, it would not have surprised me to see at least one of them crash. The difference between 1988 and 2007 was that Senna blamed himself for not winning, whilst Hamilton blamed the team for own underperformance.


Wasnt that the Monaco GP where Senna pushed himself to the limit so hard that he qualified almost 2 seconds faster than Prost?
#44031
I'm not wanting to get involved in this, but just wanna ask Mclaren Fan about his point on Ron Dennis and the Monaco GP. Surely he employed tht tactic on Senna and Prost in 1988. Now I know Prost played some mind games and got to Aryton, but why did Senna see the need to push if that was the agreement? Could he not trust the team?

Senna and Prost were great rivals, so I daresay there was some silly beggars from both drivers. The race was as good as over, so Dennis was probably looking forward to seeing both his drivers on the podium. Prost, slightly cheekily, decided he would put in a fast lap, because his desire to win the Grand Prix was greater than his desire to obey team orders, and he had nothing to lose. After Prost's fast lap, Senna freaked out, and so put the hammer down again, even though he was still the best part of a minute in the lead. Dennis (I think) told him over the radio that it was okay, Prost couldn't catch him, so he was to continue to take it easy. Senna must not have been convinced or was still distracted enough to crash the car. I guess it's one of the flaws of having the two top drivers in your team, allowing them to compete, and having to deal with their nasty tricks on one another. Going back to the original issue, however, it shows why McLaren are right to have the agreement, albeit tough to enforce sometimes, for last year, had Alonso and Hamilton raced one another, it would not have surprised me to see at least one of them crash. The difference between 1988 and 2007 was that Senna blamed himself for not winning, whilst Hamilton blamed the team for own underperformance.


Wasnt that the Monaco GP where Senna pushed himself to the limit so hard that he qualified almost 2 seconds faster than Prost?

Indeed it was.

As for McLaren's chances at Monaco, I think the team are in with a real shout. McLaren have winning pedigree around Monaco, the team have had an effective strategy for winning the Grand Prix and should do this year, unless Hamilton gets his way, and McLaren do have knack of developing the car really quickly, especially in the middle part of the season. What does concern me slightly is, as I said, Hamilton's desire to have a free for all. Secondly, that the McLaren does seem to struggle slightly on the softer tyres. That the car was, shockingly when you consider McLaren's form last year and also take into account the MP4-23's marginally longer wheelbase, slower around the tighter corners in Spain. All of the issues are very fixable, however. Hamilton should be told to do as he is told and, as mentioned, McLaren know how to win at Monaco and up the ante in the development stakes.
#44034
I'm not wanting to get involved in this, but just wanna ask Mclaren Fan about his point on Ron Dennis and the Monaco GP. Surely he employed tht tactic on Senna and Prost in 1988. Now I know Prost played some mind games and got to Aryton, but why did Senna see the need to push if that was the agreement? Could he not trust the team?

Senna and Prost were great rivals, so I daresay there was some silly beggars from both drivers. The race was as good as over, so Dennis was probably looking forward to seeing both his drivers on the podium. Prost, slightly cheekily, decided he would put in a fast lap, because his desire to win the Grand Prix was greater than his desire to obey team orders, and he had nothing to lose. After Prost's fast lap, Senna freaked out, and so put the hammer down again, even though he was still the best part of a minute in the lead. Dennis (I think) told him over the radio that it was okay, Prost couldn't catch him, so he was to continue to take it easy. Senna must not have been convinced or was still distracted enough to crash the car. I guess it's one of the flaws of having the two top drivers in your team, allowing them to compete, and having to deal with their nasty tricks on one another. Going back to the original issue, however, it shows why McLaren are right to have the agreement, albeit tough to enforce sometimes, for last year, had Alonso and Hamilton raced one another, it would not have surprised me to see at least one of them crash. The difference between 1988 and 2007 was that Senna blamed himself for not winning, whilst Hamilton blamed the team for own underperformance.


Wasnt that the Monaco GP where Senna pushed himself to the limit so hard that he qualified almost 2 seconds faster than Prost?

Indeed it was.

As for McLaren's chances at Monaco, I think the team are in with a real shout. McLaren have winning pedigree around Monaco, the team have had an effective strategy for winning the Grand Prix and should do this year, unless Hamilton gets his way, and McLaren do have knack of developing the car really quickly, especially in the middle part of the season. What does concern me slightly is, as I said, Hamilton's desire to have a free for all. Secondly, that the McLaren does seem to struggle slightly on the softer tyres. That the car was, shockingly when you consider McLaren's form last year and also take into account the MP4-23's marginally longer wheelbase, slower around the tighter corners in Spain. All of the issues are very fixable, however. Hamilton should be told to do as he is told and, as mentioned, McLaren know how to win at Monaco and up the ante in the development stakes.


I'm curious to find out how McLaren will perform at Monaco as with BMW. Didnt McLaren make their car longer this year?
#44036
deleted
Last edited by McLaren Fan on 19 May 08, 13:35, edited 1 time in total.
#44061
.... Anyway back to subject. Whos gonna win this year?

Ive gotta feeling this is gonna be a race for the underdog, maybe

BMW
Ferrari
Renault
Williams
Mclaren
Red bull (I bet you they will have an indiana jones theme)
Toyota
honda
torro rossa
force india
#44124
.... Anyway back to subject. Whos gonna win this year?

Ive gotta feeling this is gonna be a race for the underdog, maybe

BMW
Ferrari
Renault
Williams
Mclaren
Red bull (I bet you they will have an indiana jones theme)
Toyota
honda
torro rossa
force india


LoL, maybe DC will dress up as Indiana Jones...
#44139
.... Anyway back to subject. Whos gonna win this year?

Ive gotta feeling this is gonna be a race for the underdog, maybe

BMW
Ferrari
Renault
Williams
Mclaren
Red bull (I bet you they will have an indiana jones theme)
Toyota
honda
torro rossa
force india


LoL, maybe DC will dress up as Indiana Jones...


Yes, he's closing in on Harrison's age :P
#44140
.... Anyway back to subject. Whos gonna win this year?

Ive gotta feeling this is gonna be a race for the underdog, maybe

BMW
Ferrari
Renault
Williams
Mclaren
Red bull (I bet you they will have an indiana jones theme)
Toyota
honda
torro rossa
force india




LoL, maybe DC will dress up as Indiana Jones...


Yes, he's closing in on Harrison's age :P


maybe he will crack a whip on Mosely :wink:
#44148
.... Anyway back to subject. Whos gonna win this year?

Ive gotta feeling this is gonna be a race for the underdog, maybe

BMW
Ferrari
Renault
Williams
Mclaren
Red bull (I bet you they will have an indiana jones theme)
Toyota
honda
torro rossa
force india




LoL, maybe DC will dress up as Indiana Jones...


Yes, he's closing in on Harrison's age :P


maybe he will crack a whip on Mosely :wink:

Which one will be bringing the bandages? :lol:
#44157
One thing tho, Alonso's qually lap at Monaco was amazingly hooked up. Hamilton or no Hamilton.


Just wanted to put this and the comments before it about Hamilton and Alonso at Monaco last year into perspective. I hope not to be annoying just to show you where i got the information from when I said Lewis was faster. I was not being blinded, it came from an article by Mark Hughes who is very good at technical analysis(Im not). Anyway, here it is, its a good read. Sorry its so long :shock:

"Lewis's unfinished Monaco business
Tuesday, 20 May 2008 00:00

After four straight defeats by Ferrari, Lewis Hamilton and McLaren need a big weekend in Monaco to signal that they are truly in the hunt for this year's title.

The Woking squad was a dominant force in the Principality last year, although Hamilton had to play second fiddle to team-mate Fernando Alonso, who controlled the race from pole position.

But, as Mark Hughes explains, the '07 results disguised the reality that Hamilton was the pace-setter around the tortuous street circuit from the moment practice got underway. So Lewis has some unfinished business to attend to this weekend...


Monaco represents a great chance for Lewis Hamilton to get his world title assault back on course.

His McLaren-Mercedes should be just as well suited to the unique challenges of the track as last year’s car was.

In particular, the way the MP4-23 heats up its tyres very quickly should give it the front-end bite so crucial to getting direction change around the tight streets.

The fact that those corners are all of very short duration means there will not be the usual downside to the tyre warm-up characteristic – that of overheating the rubber as the corner goes on.

Besides which, Hamilton will be on an absolute mission, still feeling aggrieved at how he was denied victory here last year in favour of then-team-mate Fernando Alonso.

There remains rancour about how Hamilton reacted to Alonso’s victory last year, some feeling he behaved like a sore loser who’d been beaten fair and square.

But that view does not stand up to close analysis.

Anything more than a surface look at that weekend suggests that Hamilton was the quicker driver throughout – and by a significant margin.

Alonso’s performance was faultless, but that only translated into victory because of circumstances outside his control.


Where Hamilton was wrong in his angry post-race assessment was in assuming there had been any team favouritism towards Alonso; there had not.

The team made the decisions they did to maximise their chances of a 1-2 finish – and it was simply circumstance that decided which of the two drivers benefited from that approach.

So, although last year’s Monaco Grand Prix is ancient history now, it’s worth a recap to underline just what a dynamite force Hamilton is at this venue.

The surface analysis shows Alonso on pole, Alonso leading all the way, Alonso setting fastest race lap. Ergo, Alonso was the faster driver.

Actually, not so. There were several tracks last year at which Alonso was the faster McLaren driver, but Monaco was not one of them.

The misleading picture is all to do with fuel weights, a subject that turns off many a casual follower but which is absolutely crucial in fully understanding how last year’s Monaco GP played out.

Alonso was on pole but Hamilton was just 0.2s behind despite carrying five more laps’ worth of fuel. Around Monaco the cars use around 1.8kg of fuel per lap and each 10kg of weight costs 0.25s of lap time.

Do the sums and Lewis had done a near-identical lap to Fernando when account was taken of their respective fuel weights.

But this was despite being baulked by Mark Webber’s Red Bull from Mirabeau to the tunnel entry. Alonso had been baulked too – by Robert Kubica’s BMW in the last couple of corners. So because of the traffic the actual grid times don’t definitively answer the question of who was really quicker.

But there’s a clue when comparing the sector one times, the part of the track stretching from the start line to the entry to Mirabeau.

Both drivers got clear runs through this sector – and Hamilton's last run was faster than his previous benchmark time by 0.35s. He was on course to improve by 0.5s over the lap as a whole. This makes perfectly believable his claims that he could have been on pole by 0.3s despite carrying an 0.225s weight penalty in extra fuel.

There are other clues too. At the beginning of the final qualifying session, the skies were overcast and it was looking like it might be about to rain.

McLaren had new tyres fitted to both cars and gave Alonso and Hamilton instructions to go flat-out immediately rather than doing the usual fuel-burn laps, just in case this should turn out to be the only opportunity of doing a lap on a dry track.

Alonso recorded a 1m16.1s, Hamilton a 1m15.9s – again, despite the extra couple of tenths’ worth of fuel. Meaning that on these runs, weight-corrected, Lewis was 0.4s faster.

It turned out that the rain held off, so the new tyres had been wasted because the session got faster as fuel was burned off and the line of surface rubber made the track grippier – and thus it all came down to the traffic-compromised final runs.

Hamilton had been 0.3s faster than Alonso since Thursday practice whenever they were running together on the same specification of tyre.

Alonso ended up heading the times in both these sessions, giving more ammunition to those who contend the Spaniard was faster.

In fact, Hamilton didn’t complete the first session because a starter motor component fell into the gearbox.

It was while he sat out the last half-hour that Alonso took advantage of the rubbering-in of the track to eclipse Hamilton’s earlier time. When they had been running on track at the same time, Lewis was a consistent 0.3s faster.

In the afternoon session Hamilton crashed on his first lap of the softer, grippier tyre option. Again, Alonso was fastest by the end, but there was no basis for comparing their speed.

When practice began again on Saturday morning, Hamilton took up where he’d left off, again 0.3s faster than his team-mate, this time in wet conditions.

In Q1, when they each did one run on the harder tyres, Hamilton was quicker by 0.374s. Fitting the softer tyres for Q2, he did one run and was quicker than Alonso by a whopping 0.6s.

However Fernando had made an error on his lap and so went out again for a second attempt, taking advantage of the track rubbering-in to set a lap 0.048s faster than Hamilton’s earlier effort.

Again, this is sometimes used to illustrate that Alonso was quicker, but this is to ignore that it was his second attempt and that Hamilton made only one run during a time when the track was slower.

In summary, every time there was a basis for direct comparison of speed through the practice sessions and into qualifying, Hamilton was conclusively faster.

Looking at race speed, Alonso set the fastest lap, on lap 44. At this time he had 10 laps of fuel still on board. On the very next lap, Hamilton – with 18 laps’ worth of fuel on board, an extra 0.36s – set a lap just 0.2s slower.

Again, taking fuel weight into account, the Briton was faster.

In order to protect themselves from a safety car being deployed before they had stopped, McLaren in effect split their strategy.

They brought Alonso in for his first stop as planned on the 26th lap, but called Hamilton in just three laps later rather than the planned five.

This prevented him from leapfrogging Alonso, but also protected the team from losing a place in the event of a safety car to cars such as Kubica’s BMW, which was running a one-stop strategy.

At the second round of stops, Alonso was brought in three laps early (again to cover a possible safety car), Hamilton was brought in ten laps early – thus finally denying him any chance of getting ahead.

The order had effectively been decided by Alonso getting into the first corner in the lead. It was immaterial to the team which of the drivers headed the 1-2; all that was important was protecting the 1-2.

The only way Hamilton could have avoided being the one who was compromised was to have qualified on pole. And for that, he needed not to have been baulked.

There was no conspiracy against him – that is clear. But what is equally clear is that he was the faster McLaren driver throughout the weekend.

There is a huge amount of unfinished Monaco business for Hamilton this weekend. All he needs to do is channel that into a devastating performance."
#44164
I have a sneaky feeling Rosberg could challenge for pole at Monaco. The FW30's lack of pace in some races with the harder tyres has apparently been down to the way the suspension has been designed to be kind to the tyres, and Bridgestone have made their compounds even harder, something that took McLaren by surprise in 2006. But in Melbourne - on soft tyres - Rosberg was comfortable between the BMW's and the car was flying in free practice at Bahrain until the wind kicked in and screwed up the gear ratio making Rosberg slower.

Monaco is also a Williams track. So I reckon Nico might take a leaf out of Alonso's book by not putting much fuel in, going for pole and then if he gets onto the front row, unlike Alonso he'll be able to fend off the McLarens and Ferraris - or even jump the pole sitter - into St Devote because the FW30 has been by far the best car off the line this year. Nakajima though I have a feeling is going to crash, because he didn't exactly sound confident in his interview in the Monaco Preview on the Williams official site.
#44172
I have a sneaky feeling Rosberg could challenge for pole at Monaco. The FW30's lack of pace in some races with the harder tyres has apparently been down to the way the suspension has been designed to be kind to the tyres, and Bridgestone have made their compounds even harder, something that took McLaren by surprise in 2006. But in Melbourne - on soft tyres - Rosberg was comfortable between the BMW's and the car was flying in free practice at Bahrain until the wind kicked in and screwed up the gear ratio making Rosberg slower.

Monaco is also a Williams track. So I reckon Nico might take a leaf out of Alonso's book by not putting much fuel in, going for pole and then if he gets onto the front row, unlike Alonso he'll be able to fend off the McLarens and Ferraris - or even jump the pole sitter - into St Devote because the FW30 has been by far the best car off the line this year. Nakajima though I have a feeling is going to crash, because he didn't exactly sound confident in his interview in the Monaco Preview on the Williams official site.


Won't need to worry about fuel, not if the reports on Saturday's weather are anything to go by... i've said this for Aussie and for Turkey but Autosports weather predictor is usually crap... but according to the BBC Qualifying day is gonna see heavy showers in Monaco!
Last edited by EwanM on 20 May 08, 21:27, edited 1 time in total.
#44175
Won't need to worry about fuel, not if the reports on Saturday's weather is anything to go by... i've said this for Aussie and for Turkey but Autosports weather predictor is usually crap... but according to the BBC Qualifying day is gonna see heavy showers in Monaco!

Indeed, I've just read about it and made a thread about it too. :shock:
#44189
I have a sneaky feeling Rosberg could challenge for pole at Monaco. The FW30's lack of pace in some races with the harder tyres has apparently been down to the way the suspension has been designed to be kind to the tyres, and Bridgestone have made their compounds even harder, something that took McLaren by surprise in 2006. But in Melbourne - on soft tyres - Rosberg was comfortable between the BMW's and the car was flying in free practice at Bahrain until the wind kicked in and screwed up the gear ratio making Rosberg slower.

Monaco is also a Williams track. So I reckon Nico might take a leaf out of Alonso's book by not putting much fuel in, going for pole and then if he gets onto the front row, unlike Alonso he'll be able to fend off the McLarens and Ferraris - or even jump the pole sitter - into St Devote because the FW30 has been by far the best car off the line this year. Nakajima though I have a feeling is going to crash, because he didn't exactly sound confident in his interview in the Monaco Preview on the Williams official site.


I think Williams will do well, well at least Nico would, at Monaco. I think if it rainsor if the leaders crash out, an underdog might win it.
  • 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7

See our F1 related articles too!