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[darwin dali]

Wasn't it a leather recliner?

[bud]

Wasn't it a leather recliner?

even comfier

[Denthúl]

ahh what a load of crap!

seriously dude! Hamilton on many occasions beat Alonso ended up above the 2 time world champ in the title race good car or not it was bloody impressive. So by beating Alonso in the same car was all down to the machinery?

I did not say that. That is simply your assumption. Not once did I say that the only reason he performed as well as he did was because of the car. Nor did I say that Alonso was better than him. Or even that anything he did last season was not impressive. Those are all your words that you, for whatever reason, seem to want to believe that I said...

What I did say, on the other hand, was that his car was far superior to the Renault which seemed to be lacking in a lot of areas last year, and in general speed this year, and the Toyota which is also considerably slower than last year's McLaren.

well your whole theory here is that Lewis had it easy while Kovi and Piquet have had poor cars which made it hard for them to shine in their rookie years.
SO yeah in affect while you may not admit it you are bringing Lewis's performance in his rookie year down.
After all ill quote jensonb, it was like driving an armchair

see the only REAL comparison you can make in F1 is between team mates as they are in the same machinery. comparing one rookie to another in different machines is pointless, they all had a job at hand to do some havent lived up to that job, no excuses!!!

Again, what you want to believe I'm getting at, not what I am actually getting at. There isn't a person out there who can deny that the guy has talent and that his performance last year was nothing short of outstanding. And at no point have I said otherwise.

But yes, I am making that point - having a car that doesn't have good pace or grip or reliability does make it difficult for you to shine than having a car that is pretty much the best one of them all for that particular year. Take, for example, Jacques Villeneuve. In 1996 and 1997, he had an ace, championship-winning Williams. He finished second only to Hill in 1996 and then took his championship in 1997. 1998, however, saw him in a much worse car which allowed him to score only 21pts and the year after, he was in a BAR which allowed him to score no points. The man had plenty of talent, that was evident, but he didn't impress much in those two years. The end of 1998 was good, with two podiums, but that was all.

In comparison, Ralf Schumacher didn't really shine in his first couple of seasons but, once he moved to Williams, he had a car that could score points and, after a year, he was getting podiums and in the next he scored three wins. Now, in my personal opinion, Ralf Schumacher was a much less talented driver than Jacques Villeneuve but, given a good car, was able to pull off impressive performances.

I'm not denying that Lewis has talent. Nor am I trying to say that Heikki, Nelson, Timo, Kazuki, Sebastian or Sebastién are better (though we don't know that since we haven't had possibility to make comparisons). All I am trying to say is that a less talented driver in a great car has much better opportunities to shine than a very talented driver has in a crap car. Alonso didn't score a single point in his debut season - indeed, he only ever made it into the top ten once. But he went on to become a double champion. Sometimes, now matter how good the driver is, their performance can be masked by a bad car. Or a good car.

Do you see what I'm trying to say?

[bud]

Denthul in all motorsport all it boils down to is what you do vs your team mate! Ask any Karter any Formula Ford MotoX rider etc and they all will say they want to beat their team mate! they know that is the yard stick that counts.

yeah your point about Jacques is great isnt it, it shows that hey you cant compare a guy who has talent to win a title once his machinery cant take him up there anymore, you cant compare him to the front runners but his team mate would make a nice comparison no? nice yard stick
but mate it seems what youre comparing here is the actual performance of the cars and not the drivers. Look at it this way, is Alonso driving any less than he was last year? any less than he was in 05 or 06? no he is driving exactly the same.
now when a top team like Renault or McLaren hires a freshman they wouldnt expect him to beat a team mate that is more experienced but they would atleast want him to be right behind him or there abouts. Look at Piquet Vs Alonso, Alonso in the same car as Piquet has done relatively well considering the machinery at hand. Piquet has had a shocker so far! now would he have done any better against Alonso if he were in Hamiltons leather recliner last year?

[Denthúl]

Again, I think you're missing the point. Do you even realise why I bothered to make the illustrations I did in the past few posts?

[bud]

dude you see, you dont think im getting it while i think the same about YOU!

illustrations..... ohhh i like pretty pictures

ok illustrations now....youre saying Ralf didnt shine in a crap car.... no s***! his stats would look terrible......
how did he go Vs his team mate

[Denthúl]

Again, you're way off the mark. The discussion is not about team-mates, is it? Read carefully.

The initial point brought up was that, since Hamilton's debut last year, there seems to have been a standard set that rookies are judged on. This was then countered by the fact that that was only last year, and is an exception to the general performance of rookies, and also that the circumstances were much different - Lewis had the best car. Then, for reasons beyond logic, you brought up Alonso, who is not a rookie and so there is no need to compare the performance of the rookies to him. I then pointed this out and went on to explain how, because Lewis had the best car on the grid, it was unfair to judge Kovalainen, Glock, Piquet etc. against the 'standard' apparently set by him last year. You then continued with the point made about Alonso which, whilst correct, is not relevant to the discussion at hand. The pair of us then continue to discuss this and I also make a point about how the performance of a car can give a very inaccurate view of a driver's skill or lack thereof.

I'm getting the point you're trying to make, but it's not relevant to what I was talking about.

[bud]

reasons beyond logic ???F YOU dude

Lewis had the best car alright then we f***ing get that part but get it through your thick obnoxious head that while that maybe the case he was STILL a rookie and wasnt expected to beat Alonso... yet he did!

thus why i brought up Alonso make sense dude? jesus christ


ill make it easy for you would Piquet have done what hamilton did in the McLaren last year ???

would he have beaten Alonso would he have been consistent enough and handled the pressure to fight for a title?

[Denthúl]

reasons beyond logic ???F YOU dude

Lewis had the best car alright then we f***ing get that part but get it through your thick obnoxious head that while that maybe the case he was STILL a rookie and wasnt expected to beat Alonso... yet he did!

thus why i brought up Alonso make sense dude? jesus christ

Insults now, eh? Aren't we mature?

I honestly don't see why I should bother attempting to hold a discussion with you and be polite about it if this is how you are going to act. We all know that Lewis wasn't expected to beat Alonso and we all know that he did beat Alonso. But that isn't what's being discussed. What is being discussed is the fact that people are expecting Piquet, Bourdais, Nakajima and Glock to display the same performance as Hamilton and why they should not do so, given the relative differences between the cars which they drove in their first years.

[darwin dali]

Ok mateys, you made your points and we all agree with you or not. But please, can we get back to a civilized discussion about NP/Renault?

[bud]

mate you insulted first, reasons beyond logic really dug deep at me you know

discussion? haha mate if you read what you wrote its reads as though youre the one who can pick and choose what to discuss.... thats not whats being discussed here thats not this thats not that. what a joke get off your high horse!
I bet you have never even driven in anger on a track let alone been to a motorsporting event or even worked on a car and you talk like you know it all about Motorsports here..... guys like you are a joke!

no one is expecting glock and piquet etc to be fighting for world titles no s*** their machines arent up to it but atleast all the teams would ask is they are on par with their team mate.
Like i said earlier even down to Karting where its a constructor series most of the time, you want to take it to your team mate whether that means your machine can take you to wins or just score points atleast be around the mark of your TEAM MATE

[Denthúl]

mate you insulted first, reasons beyond logic really dug deep at me you know

discussion? haha mate if you read what you wrote its reads as though youre the one who can pick and choose what to discuss.... thats not whats being discussed here thats not this thats not that. what a joke get off your high horse!
I bet you have never even driven in anger on a track let alone been to a motorsporting event or even worked on a car and you talk like you know it all about Motorsports here..... guys like you are a joke!

Again, more assumptions.

I did not deny the validity of your point (in fact, if you read it through, you'll find that I agree with you), merely that the Hamilton/Alonso comparison had no influence on, or relevance to, the comparison (and subsequent expected performance) of Piquet, Glock, Nakajima and Bourdais, because Alonso was not expected to perform as Hamilton did in his rookie year and those four are not expected to perform as well as Alonso does nowadays in their rookie years. I have no problem with you making points on whatever you want, but I fail to see why bringing Alonso up (and then assuming that everyone was trying to play down Lewis' ability) would have any influence on the discussion about those rookies, because he is not the person they are being compared to and it is not his performance that a lot of people seem to be expecting them to match, despite them being in cars that don't match up to last year's McLaren.

Aside from not having power to tell you what to discuss and what not to discuss, I wouldn't want to restrict what you can and can't talk about. I was pointing out the subject that had been brought up and that you were responding to and why what you were saying wasn't quite relevant to it. That's all.

no one is expecting glock and piquet etc to be fighting for world titles no s*** their machines arent up to it but atleast all the teams would ask is they are on par with their team mate.
Like i said earlier even down to Karting where its a constructor series most of the time, you want to take it to your team mate whether that means your machine can take you to wins or just score points atleast be around the mark of your TEAM MATE

No. At least, not quite. But a lot of people are expecting them to have brilliant pace and race-craft in their first year, and measure up in some way to what Lewis did last year.

[bud]

Im not expecting brilliance straight away comparable to Lewis but in F1 especially you cant hang around for too long under the L plate phase.
the driver needs to stand up and be accountable at some point and that some point is expected in his first year Look at Heikki he started off abit rough but made it there in the end. as for Nelson i had higher expectations from him, i wasnt expecting him to be so far off Alonso's pace though at the same time i wasnt expecting him to trouble Fernando.I think Renault managment would agree with me there!
id give him a few more races and if there is still no more sign of improvement he just might get the axe before seasons end.

[Denthúl]

Im not expecting brilliance straight away comparable to Lewis but in F1 especially you cant hang around for too long under the L plate phase.
the driver needs to stand up and be accountable at some point and that some point is expected in his first year Look at Heikki he started off abit rough but made it there in the end. as for Nelson i had higher expectations from him, i wasnt expecting him to be so far off Alonso's pace though at the same time i wasnt expecting him to trouble Fernando.I think Renault managment would agree with me there!
id give him a few more races and if there is still no more sign of improvement he just might get the axe before seasons end.

Of course. And I fully understand that. But people were disappointed with him after Malaysia, which was only the second race of the season. Remember that he has a lot to live up to, given the fact that he's not only made it into F1 after a good GP2 performance, but a lot of people think that all the 'new generation' drivers are on the same level as Hamilton, AND he shares his father's name.

I agree that that won't ruin his performance completely, but it does raise our expectations of him. I think he'll have made significant improvements by the end of the season. He just needs to qualify well so that he doesn't have any collisions during a race. That way, we'll actually get to see what he's capable of.

[racechick]

The point I was making is that Alonso didn't have to come into it. The comparison Jensonb made was between the MP4-22 and Hamilton, and the Renault and Toyota driven by Kovalainen and Glock respectively, with Piquet as an addition for this time round.

mate dont you get it? dont you know what a yard stick is?? if the car was so piss easy to drive then why not compare Hamiltons skill to the guy in the same car. you see it as a dig at Alonso dont ya?

No, I do get it and I don't take it as a dig at Alonso - I couldn't care what your opinion of him is, it isn't the matter at hand here. And I'm not going to get into the argument with you, either. Now...

The point is, there was no comparison between a rookie and a guy who has been driving in F1 for years. If you look back at it, you can clearly see (unless you are only picking out what you want to read) that the point made was that Hamilton had his first year in a good car, whilst the other three had cars which were hard for experienced drivers to get into the points, let alone rookies.

By all means, make your comparison to Alonso, but do please realise that it doesn't actually hold any relevence to the point which is being made, which iss rookie drivers and the cars that they drove. Hamilton has talent and was given the best car with which to perform. To compare other rookies to that standard, when they are driving vastly inferior vehicles, is unfair on them.

It makes every relevance who the team-mate is. The only true yardstick /measure/whatever you want to call it, is how you perform against your team mate. Lewis may have had the best car but he also had the best teammate, and he beat him. Of course those other rookies couldnt have achieved the same championship standing as Lewis in a lesser car but they could have perfornmd better against their team mate. You say the McLaren was easy to drive-I take your word for it, but Alonso had a few problems adjusting to the tyres so maybe not quite the piece of cake you assume.