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[sagi58]

So , are you saying ...
2 ( 2 + 2 ) ÷ 2 = 4 X

[overboost]

I really don't see Alonso being any better than Hamilton, they are both very similar and regardless of later on in the season in 2007 Lewis was spanking Alonso multi times in his rookie year.

With something intangible like 'naturally talented' or 'naturally gifted' its entirely down to subjectiveness. For example there are a lot of golf players in the world who are 'naturally more talented' than Tiger etc, but are unfortunately working in Burger King or attending AA meetings because they were 'unlucky'

So even if Alonso is the most talented he is not the best, as evidenced by his inability to translate that into results, like getting beaten by the rookie Hamilton, and being unable to overtake the rookie Petrov for a WDC title. Perhaps he is not as complete as Hamilton, who is more adaptable, has won in 2 teams, is in the best seat for the next era, is a faster qualifier and better racer and has a better racing brain and race craft

But Alonso could still be regarded as more naturally talented and just less able to get the best out of it whereas Lewis does. Even in the areas Alonso seems to master - such as politicking and manipulating, he is not able to turn into results despite his natural talent

The statistics, such as races won, WDCS won, head to head ofcourse point to Hamilton being better, but they dont explain 'naturally gifted' which is a metric that only the observer can judge

In that Abu Dhabi 2010 race just getting past rookie Petrov wouldn't have gotten him the championship. He would also have had to pass Kubica and perhaps Rosberg as I think Vettel owned the tie breaker. He was in a far deeper hole than simply needing to get past rookie Petrov! It was a poor strategy choosing to cover Webber.

Alonso is my pick based on the careers of the three to date. He is a rare combination of talent, focus and consistency always performing at a top level year after year.

If we are just looking at 2014 performances then my choices would be Ricciardo, then Alonso and Bottas as the top three. So Alonso remains my pick of the three listed.

[RyRy]

With something intangible like 'naturally talented' or 'naturally gifted' its entirely down to subjectiveness. For example there are a lot of golf players in the world who are 'naturally more talented' than Tiger etc, but are unfortunately working in Burger King or attending AA meetings because they were 'unlucky'

So even if Alonso is the most talented he is not the best, as evidenced by his inability to translate that into results, like getting beaten by the rookie Hamilton, and being unable to overtake the rookie Petrov for a WDC title. Perhaps he is not as complete as Hamilton, who is more adaptable, has won in 2 teams, is in the best seat for the next era, is a faster qualifier and better racer and has a better racing brain and race craft

But Alonso could still be regarded as more naturally talented and just less able to get the best out of it whereas Lewis does. Even in the areas Alonso seems to master - such as politicking and manipulating, he is not able to turn into results despite his natural talent

The statistics, such as races won, WDCS won, head to head ofcourse point to Hamilton being better, but they dont explain 'naturally gifted' which is a metric that only the observer can judge

Do you not think they are both naturally gifted/talented? Alonso is by far the best when it comes to politics and manipulation, that's mostly down to his ego and the fact he's not an emotional driver like Hamilton.

I secretly want Alonso to join Mercedes in 2016 or 2017 along side Hamilton as the team definitely wont take sides and we'd get to see them go at it again. It would be another straight spanking by Hamilton although one could then say that Hamilton was used to the car and therefore had an advantage.

Alonso is my pick based on the careers of the three to date. He is a rare combination of talent, focus and consistency always performing at a top level year after year.

If we are just looking at 2014 performances then my choices would be Ricciardo, then Alonso and Bottas as the top three. So Alonso remains my pick of the three listed.

Ricciardo had a smashing year in 2014 but I still think Hamilton was equally as good as Ric was... the dominating car just makes it less noticeable.

Hamilton understood how to drive the cars, maximising fuel saving (less fuel needed) and knew how to use the tires to maximise performance.

Just look at every race where he was behind Rosberg at the start Hamilton was able to stick right behind Rosberg and knew when to push, how to push and we saw how Hamilton was able to out-race him; Rosberg is NOT a slow driver, I said back when he came into the sport that if he got into a good car he would challenge and be fast and he is but only really in qualifying.

In races where he was on pole we saw how he was able to get away and Rosberg wasn't able to stick with him, even at Bahrain when Rosberg should have been able to cruise past on the better tires but he just couldn't out-race Hamilton.

Look at Hungary where Rosberg got caught out by the Safety car... Rosberg couldn't overtake Vergne but Hamilton managed to do it within 2 laps on older tyres than what Rosberg had.

It was obvious you wouldn't choose Hamilton for this poll as we all know you hate him.

I hate Alonso but at least I can admit that Alonso is a great driver and pretty equally matched to the likes of Hamilton.

[CookinFlat6]

Well only one of them has the same amount of championships as the other 2 put together.

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Only one of them has been beaten 3-0 in race wins in on season

The truest metric of F1 is race wins. So we know all we need to about Seb - Ricciardo is 3x better

[CookinFlat6]

In that Abu Dhabi 2010 race just getting past rookie Petrov wouldn't have gotten him the championship. He would also have had to pass Kubica and perhaps Rosberg as I think Vettel owned the tie breaker. He was in a far deeper hole than simply needing to get past rookie Petrov! It was a poor strategy choosing to cover Webber.

Alonso is my pick based on the careers of the three to date. He is a rare combination of talent, focus and consistency always performing at a top level year after year.

If we are just looking at 2014 performances then my choices would be Ricciardo, then Alonso and Bottas as the top three. So Alonso remains my pick of the three listed.

If he had overtaken the rookie Petrov the strategy would have worked and he would have finished where he had to for the points. Those f1 followers unable to think would look at the finishing positions and assumed he had to pass etc etc. Those who are able to think know that he finished where he did relative to others as HE WAS HELD UP BY PETROV FOR 30 laps, and that means he lost TIME.

As I said earlier subjective opinions about the best driver are worth as much as facts from a liar, no one cares which driver anyone thinks unless it actually means something - Like the F1 bosses who collectively confirmed that Lewis was the best in 2014 by the biggest margin seen in TP polls

In F1 you are only as good as your last race ergo currently Lewis is the best TO THOSE WHO MATTER AND WRITE THE CHEQUES

[CookinFlat6]

Ricciardo had a smashing year in 2014 but I still think Hamilton was equally as good as Ric was... the dominating car just makes it less noticeable.

Hamilton understood how to drive the cars, maximising fuel saving (less fuel needed) and knew how to use the tires to maximise performance.

..../

I hate Alonso but at least I can admit that Alonso is a great driver and pretty equally matched to the likes of Hamilton.

Thats last part is because you have something called integrity and prefer truth to self delusion

Ricciardo did not really achieve that much, as evidenced by the F1 tps not voting him high in 2014, they know whats what. Ricc had the 2nd best car which was illegally fast and stable in the corners for the races the scrutineers didnt throw him out for. He wasnt a rookie but an experienced driver, he didnt actually beat the Mercs on merit, just by default. The evidence is that it was all the car as it was for Seb previously - a function of Neweys persistent cheating and building cars faster than the rules allow.
All Ricc did was be less lame than Seb, not crash out and get the best out of the car he had. He screwed up the starts and quali regularly and went missing in a few races. And the times he appeared to do really well were only those occasions when the car was exceptionally suited to the conditions.

We will likely see Kyviat beat him this season as he is said to be faster within RBR circles. Its only the same type of people who jumped on Seb is God bandwagon are doing the same with Ricciardo, JEV would have done a much better job in that car as would have Alguesari, Bianchi, Koba, Rosberg, Bottas, Chilton

[RyRy]

Ricciardo had a smashing year in 2014 but I still think Hamilton was equally as good as Ric was... the dominating car just makes it less noticeable.

Hamilton understood how to drive the cars, maximising fuel saving (less fuel needed) and knew how to use the tires to maximise performance.

..../

I hate Alonso but at least I can admit that Alonso is a great driver and pretty equally matched to the likes of Hamilton.

Thats last part is because you have something called integrity and prefer truth to self delusion

Ricciardo did not really achieve that much, as evidenced by the F1 tps not voting him high in 2014, they know whats what. Ricc had the 2nd best car which was illegally fast and stable in the corners for the races the scrutineers didnt throw him out for. He wasnt a rookie but an experienced driver, he didnt actually beat the Mercs on merit, just by default. The evidence is that it was all the car as it was for Seb previously - a function of Neweys persistent cheating and building cars faster than the rules allow.
All Ricc did was be less lame than Seb, not crash out and get the best out of the car he had. He screwed up the starts and quali regularly and went missing in a few races. And the times he appeared to do really well were only those occasions when the car was exceptionally suited to the conditions.

We will likely see Kyviat beat him this season as he is said to be faster within RBR circles. Its only the same type of people who jumped on Seb is God bandwagon are doing the same with Ricciardo, JEV would have done a much better job in that car as would have Alguesari, Bianchi, Koba, Rosberg, Bottas, Chilton

Ric did some great moves last year, some against Vettel, Alonso and some other drivers. I think you don't rate him high enough but yeah I agree with you on Kvyat should put up a fight and beat Ric. I've always liked Kvyat but then again I've always liked Vergne but for some reason they didn't keep him which is really quite stupid!

[overboost]

Alonso is my pick based on the careers of the three to date. He is a rare combination of talent, focus and consistency always performing at a top level year after year.

If we are just looking at 2014 performances then my choices would be Ricciardo, then Alonso and Bottas as the top three. So Alonso remains my pick of the three listed.

Ricciardo had a smashing year in 2014 but I still think Hamilton was equally as good as Ric was... the dominating car just makes it less noticeable.

Hamilton understood how to drive the cars,maximising fuel saving (less fuel needed) and knew how to use the tires to maximise performance.

Just look at every race where he was behind Rosberg at the start Hamilton was able to stick right behind Rosberg and knew when to push, how to push and we saw how Hamilton was able to out-race him; Rosberg is NOT a slow driver, I said back when he came into the sport that if he got into a good car he would challenge and be fast and he is but only really in qualifying.

In races where he was on pole we saw how he was able to get away and Rosberg wasn't able to stick with him, even at Bahrain when Rosberg should have been able to cruise past on the better tires but he just couldn't out-race Hamilton.

Look at Hungary where Rosberg got caught out by the Safety car... Rosberg couldn't overtake Vergne but Hamilton managed to do it within 2 laps on older tyres than what Rosberg had.

It was obvious you wouldn't choose Hamilton for this poll as we all know you hate him.

I hate Alonso but at least I can admit that Alonso is a great driver and pretty equally matched to the likes of Hamilton.

The dominant car makes it extremely difficult to place either Rosberg or Hamilton among their peers in 2014. All we can say is that Hamilton did well and did better than Rosberg. Rosberg himself has been a good driver but was not considered a 'top tier' driver. One thing that was exposed in 2014 though was a weakness in qually for Hamilton vs Rosberg which also hurts his cause imo.

[CookinFlat6]

Ric did some great moves last year, some against Vettel, Alonso and some other drivers. I think you don't rate him high enough but yeah I agree with you on Kvyat should put up a fight and beat Ric. I've always liked Kvyat but then again I've always liked Vergne but for some reason they didn't keep him which is really quite stupid!

Ric did some great moves in a car that was in a different league to the also rans. We know this car was in a different league just by looking at how bad the Renault engine was at the start and then look at how dominant the RBR was on tracks that the engine power deficiency was not important.
Most of all, we now know that the RBR had some massive advantages over every single other car in its ability to not get caught for cheating in almost every race, except the first and last race when the team were a bit distracted.

We heard other driver speak about the amount of grip the RB10 had in the corners, which is exactly what allowed Ricc to pull every single one of the moves that made him seem exceptionally talented compared to the drivers in cars that had about 40% less DF (but were at least legal)

We also know that RBR did not put the same things on both cars, we just have to look at the driver that was DQed for cheating to ralise the other looked much better in the races that the cheating worked undetected by the scrutineers

One thing is for sure, we will find out this year how much of RBR is the car when Kyviat, - likely on of the 3 fastest guys on the grid steps up from the STR

[overboost]

In that Abu Dhabi 2010 race just getting past rookie Petrov wouldn't have gotten him the championship. He would also have had to pass Kubica and perhaps Rosberg as I think Vettel owned the tie breaker. He was in a far deeper hole than simply needing to get past rookie Petrov! It was a poor strategy choosing to cover Webber.

Alonso is my pick based on the careers of the three to date. He is a rare combination of talent, focus and consistency always performing at a top level year after year.

If we are just looking at 2014 performances then my choices would be Ricciardo, then Alonso and Bottas as the top three. So Alonso remains my pick of the three listed.

If he had overtaken the rookie Petrov the strategy would have worked and he would have finished where he had to for the points. Those f1 followers unable to think would look at the finishing positions and assumed he had to pass etc etc. Those who are able to think know that he finished where he did relative to others as HE WAS HELD UP BY PETROV FOR 30 laps, and that means he lost TIME.

As I said earlier subjective opinions about the best driver are worth as much as facts from a liar, no one cares which driver anyone thinks unless it actually means something - Like the F1 bosses who collectively confirmed that Lewis was the best in 2014 by the biggest margin seen in TP polls

In F1 you are only as good as your last race ergo currently Lewis is the best TO THOSE WHO MATTER AND WRITE THE CHEQUES

cookin even if Alonso could have found a way past Petrov his strategy would have still been scuttled by Rosberg. Seeing that Alonso was having so much trouble with rookie Petrov with Renault power then wouldn't it be more difficult to get past an experienced Rosberg with the superior Mercedes engine!? Also of note is that Hamilton spent 22 laps stuck behind Petrov's teammate Kubica unable to pass. That race was all about track position, you just can't add up time lost. Think before you type!

The TP's are very strategic so their votes have been questioned in the past. I am also sure that you would have questioned them as Hamilton hasn't done very well in their opinion since 2008. Since then it has been Vet, Alon, Vet, Alon, Vet. Maybe in this vote they were just building Hamilton up in his renegotiation year! I wouldn't put it past them.

[CookinFlat6]

Rosberg and Hamilton were not racing for a WDC that day, in the best car Alonso was the ONLY driver on the grid with the title in his hands, i.e the only driver not to need any result from another driver

I think most people would agree that a less cautious and less calculating and less slow driver such as Rosberg or Hamilton would have tried AT LEAST ONE ATTEMPT in 34 laps to overtake the rookie Petrov

Alonso did try to pass AFTER the race and actually made a good job of waving his fist at the rookie Petrov, unfortunately the rookie Petrov was not intimidated and actually SCARED Alonso off with a nifty car feint,

But then most people would know that F1 teams did not develop their engines from race to race during the V8 era and that MS did not test V6 turbo parts during V8 races

[Jabberwocky]

Well only one of them has the same amount of championships as the other 2 put together.

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Only one of them has been beaten 3-0 in race wins in on season

The truest metric of F1 is race wins. So we know all we need to about Seb - Ricciardo is 3x better

Your right so

Vettel 5.57 wins a year
Hamilton 4.71 wins a year
Alonso 2.41 wins a year

Makes Vettel the better driver

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[Hammer278]

Well only one of them has the same amount of championships as the other 2 put together.

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Only one of them has been beaten 3-0 in race wins in on season

The truest metric of F1 is race wins. So we know all we need to about Seb - Ricciardo is 3x better

Your right so

Vettel 5.57 wins a year
Hamilton 4.71 wins a year
Alonso 2.41 wins a year

Makes Vettel the better driver

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It's an either or situation when measuring such a subjective matter. If we go by numbers purely, no one holds a candle to Vettel on the grid today and that's the truth.

However, Vettel got his a$$ spanked by a newbie 3-0 and people hardly even talk about him anymore and his name became a past tense halfway through the 2014 season. I'm going to enjoy watching Vettel the best driver kick some butt in the most passionate and successful F1 team this year. It's going to be awesome.

[CookinFlat6]

Well only one of them has the same amount of championships as the other 2 put together.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

Only one of them has been beaten 3-0 in race wins in on season

The truest metric of F1 is race wins. So we know all we need to about Seb - Ricciardo is 3x better

Your right so

Vettel 5.57 wins a year
Hamilton 4.71 wins a year
Alonso 2.41 wins a year

Makes Vettel the better driver

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They won those in different cars. We can only compare wins as teammates. So Alonso matched Lewis, Lewis is much better than button, Seb is better than webber but much worse than Ricc, Lewis is twice as good as Nico, etc, these are the only tangible facts we have

[overboost]

Rosberg and Hamilton were not racing for a WDC that day, in the best car Alonso was the ONLY driver on the grid with the title in his hands, i.e the only driver not to need any result from another driver

I think most people would agree that a less cautious and less calculating and less slow driver such as Rosberg or Hamilton would have tried AT LEAST ONE ATTEMPT in 34 laps to overtake the rookie Petrov

Alonso did try to pass AFTER the race and actually made a good job of waving his fist at the rookie Petrov, unfortunately the rookie Petrov was not intimidated and actually SCARED Alonso off with a nifty car feint

Actually Hamilton was still in the race for wdc that day, barely but still there. So a mistake on your part I guess. As well being wrong to say that simply passing Petrov wins Alonso the wdc. I do recommend you to actually watch the races, it does help.

You failed to comment on Hamilton not being able to pass Kubica for 22 laps. But I gather from your post that Hamilton wasn't really trying. This is interesting because if he had been trying and caught up Vettel and easily passed him for the win then Alonso would have been champion. This is very interesting point you are bringing to light as Lewis was looking for a Red Bull ride then, infamously visiting the Red Bull trailer in Montreal just months later. Was he cashing in this favour??

Nah. I think it was just impossible to pass that day. Both Lewis and Alonso unfortunately could do nothing but follow the Renaults.