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[CookinFlat6]

It's truly a case of be careful what you wish for

Indeed. I think Mercedes AMG will make the others regret this beef.

This will be such fun!

The clue is Mercs readiness to endorse the loophole
At the worst for Merc it means that if the other 2 are not ready at the start of the season with the best update within their tokens then Merc have an extra period of dominance at the start before the other bring the updates - and if those updates are any good Merc can bring something extra each time
So they are still guaranteed the advantage they gained by acing the regs last year and pulling a lead. It's just that their lead can be extended 4 times a year instead of once. RBR will be paying Renault much more and Ferrari will quadruple their costs and the Merc customers can save the money and use it on other things like the chassis

Can the others catch up with Merc within those tokens? Unless they can Merc don't need any extra updates at all plus they will already have pulled a lead from the start when the others are still on the 2014 spec.

Splendid fun awaits

[What's Burning?]

Wonder what Eric Boullier is saying now. You know a protest from McHonda is being filed on Monday.

[CookinFlat6]

Here's the kicker

German magazine Auto Motor und Sport correctly analysed: “Newcomers [like Honda] have no tokens in the first year. Until their engine is homologated at the end of February, they are completely free to develop, but after that they may only upgrade on grounds of reliability, cost or safety”.

McLaren chief Ron Dennis has reportedly already expressed his concern about the rules as it may disadvantage his team throughout 2015.

It appears though that without unanimous approval among teams, and despite Honda's push, the engine 'unfreeze' will hinge on the interpretation of the current regulations as Mercedes appears unwilling to accept more engine development, as Renault and Ferrari requested.

Personally I would have taken Mercs offer of EXTRA development tokens instead of more time to develop the existing amount. This is a no lose for Merc as they already have a lead - the others can still only develop the same amount as before and no extra, it's just they have more time now, time that guarantees Merc remain even more ahead than they were last year

At least no more complaints. No freeze

[CookinFlat6]

Wonder what Eric Boullier is saying now. You know a protest from McHonda is being filed on Monday.

Boulier might be too embarrassed to admit he helped his competitors pull an advantage on his team as it means the 2 losers can react to Honda during the season, oh yeah, as well as the real rival Merc

What an epic home goal

[Jabberwocky]

Is the engines being used for consecutive races a new rule for this year?

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[CookinFlat6]

Not consecutive races but only 4 engines for the season, down from 5 last year

Say they start with the 2014 engine and introduce an update aimed at wet races, they would have to introduce the update aimed at dry races soon after unless they expect 5 wet races in a row. Extrapolating that means they need all 4 updates for the 4 race types at the start to be able to use them in the right races, unless there are 5 wet races then 5 dry races etc

Which ofcourse is what the regs decided upon cater for - the upgrades at the start of the year

So there won't be upgrades for different types of race only upgrades that are best fir all races but 4 times during the season, which is like 4 Jerez 2014 tests in free practice hoping to hit the ground running

A mid season major engine update with only fp to test them is a recipe for disaster for Ferrari

Let's not forget that Merc are already with an update designed to last the whole year and as such will be even more reliable than last years while the 2 losers are bringing updates 4 times when they screwed up on the one with a whole year to get ready for

[racechick]

boulier's acted like a fool. Which is why I said in my previous post I don't feel sorry for him, but I do for Honda, Bouliiers Rush to get in bed with Ferrari and Renault at the expense of Mercedes has caused his own engine supplier a massive disadvantage. I'm not surprised Dennis is putting in a complaint on Monday, I think he has a fair point, but they look foolish that the fuss and whinning from that team has partly put them in this position. If Honda had stuck to the rules with Mercedes they'd be better off. As it is Mercedes are Laughing. Ferrari and Renault run the risk of chaos for possibly no gain on Merc and Honda are disadvantaged....unfairly in my view.

Can I ask a question about this. As they only have four engines and they want to do lots of changes but are behind schedule, might this happen. They start with one engine, after four races they bring the first upgrade and all their teams get the new engine, and it doesn't work too well, there was an oversite, it upsets the tyres, it's unreliable, it's too heavy on petrol...I don't know anything, but it's not good. Do they now have to keep that engine for the next three or four races? Also, With the old system they could switch and change the engines and components of them, presumably they can't do that anymore?
Also if they get an engine blow up, say two races into its life, and they need a new one for the next race ,what do they get? There won't be anymore engines because the next upgrade won't be ready?

I think Merc are laughing here, win win, as far as I can see.

[CookinFlat6]

Each update will be an engine spec that has to be delivered to all customers. They are not fixed till the one they declare is the 2015 one. But they are only allowed 1 engine for 5 races, so if they start with the 2014 spec and bring a 2015a halfway thru the year then all engines used before will be the old spec and all engines supplied after the 2015a. If the 2015a is a dog they are stuck with it for 5 races ( or another engine, either the 2014 or a 2015b has to do more than 5 races, but they won't have a b yet and so will have to supply a 2014 again.

Basically instead of turning up with their 2015 engine they can delay it till end if year, and can bring out interim 2015 engines but the teams are only allowed 4 engines which can't be changed race to race

It's going to be like bringing updates 4 times a year instead of once, those update gotta work each time or they should bring only one major update through the year but that's risky as there's only a test in the year

Best is to bring one major update after the 2 winter tests to iron out any issues ..... But that's what they did agree upon originally so they can now spend 4 times as much for the second best strategy for dealing with updates

Clever stuff from Ferrari

Honda will never agree to this and can point out the interpretation is proven to be flawed so nothing stands anymore

[1Lemon]

What's worse with this loophole is that Honda aren't allowed to develop their 32 tokens mid season as these rules only apply to existing manufacturers. However due to the SAME loophole in theory they can update all 66 tokens (or whatever) as this article only applies to existing manufacturers.

Source http://thejudge13.com/2015/01/03/f1-features-spot-the-elephant-engine-loopholes/

Under the current regulations, Honda can theoretically present the FIA with an engine specification which can be agreed (homologated) as suitable to race in Formula One at he end of February and can then design/develop 32 tokens worth of the engine components as can the other PU suppliers, throughout the season.

In fact, due to the oversight of Whiting and the FIA, Honda could argue, they are allowed to present an engine which fits the specification of the new V6 Turbo regulations – have it homologated – and then continue to develop the whole of the 66 tokens throughout the 2015 season. This is not forbidden by the regulations for a new manufacturer.

[racechick]

Well I think they've all just made it a hell of a lot worse for themselves...all except Mercedes. They( or their customers) run a high risk of having to default to a 2014 engine. It only needs an engine failure one race after an upgrade, and that car's stuffed. No taking a new engine like last year, and like it was going to be, just stuffed.

How very short sighted of the people who pushed for that.

[CookinFlat6]

They were really pushing for unlimited development, i.e unlimited tokens and unlimited upgrades. Merc offered more tokens i.e more development, but they rejected this threatening new engines in 2016 etc.
all they have now is more time to use their tokens, but that time is during the season, so not only have they postponed the date they can start closing the gap to Merc in 2015(they already admited failure there) Merc customers can make hay with their 2015 (more reliable and better update of 2014) while the others are still on the 2014, and when their 2015a is ready unless it's magically matching Mercs 2014(not even Mercs 2015) then it doesn't really matter when they make the development of the same tokens they didn't finish for the start of the year - dammed if they do etc

Let's assume for a second that using all the tokens available allows them to catch up with Mercs 2015 (would mean Merc went backwards with their own tokens) then it would still mean they have caught up a while AFTER Merc have been making hay while the sun is shining

We know there is no way they could catch up with Merc with the tokens when they were not even able to use all tokens during the year when Merc were,

Thus will be an almighty expense for the 2 makers, RBR will wear the cost for Renault, Ferrari are completely fkd in my opinion because they were already in disarray, already up the wrong fundamental path and need a whole new redesigned engine, even if they could change the whole concept, split the turbo etc on the 48% tokens then there will be a lead time of at least 8 months to produce a new engine concept and cast it and bench test it- during which time they use the old one and get spanked by lotus and force India on engines that give around 5 - 10 seconds a lap advantage - no joke this

Another big factor here is wether to use all tokens cleverly and produce 1 big coordinated and well planned update with 2016 and beyond in mind or wether to waste tokens with piecemeal stabs in the dark. If it's one big update then the best time to release it is next winter having the 2 tests seeing as 2015 is already written off - hitch sounds a bit like the rules they all agreed upon when all sat down calmly and not under face loss pressure

Big costs to salve a few egos - good thing is only Ferrari and RBR will be affected - Sauber are screwed already and won't pay Ferrari for updates,

And Honda will still appear and spank both RBR and Ferrari from day one reliability permitting

What a royal mess

[CookinFlat6]

Now I wonder which member is suddenly using an alias?????

Interesting how the biggest complainers about the engine freeze have suddenly gone very silent now that Horner has the chance to defeat Merc in open and fair competition. (lets leave Ferrari aside for now)

And interesting how frustration boiling over with certain 'fans' always takes the form of an alias that is as obvious as a zit on a teenager

[Jabberwocky]

All sorted now mate. User has been banned and posts removed. (RC saved the day)

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[CigarGuy]

All sorted now mate. User has been banned and posts removed. (RC saved the day)

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You Brits keep some late hours!

[CookinFlat6]

Greenwich is a 24hr party center Cigar guy