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[CookinFlat6]

Looking around the forums it appears as though Rons recent statement that Lewis 'had a role' in the triggering of the famous 2007 Alonso implosion has been seized upon by the les knowledgeable Lewis detractors who are jumping up to have a gleeful 'i told you so' or a 'Lewis was favoured after all' are all wishing they hadnt because that route leads to an even bigger respect for Lewis all round prowess over Alonso than they intended

So to avoid other threads getting diverted I will be attempting to educate our own members who 'always knew' something about 2007 but were unable to understand the facts available about the chronology of events. There is nothing more off putting to potential new debaters than pig ignorance.

I will start with the following exchange between a mod and a member on Autosport, to set the tone for the thread

A 2xWDC who blackmails the TP makes way for Kovaleinen and jumps to a team at the back end of the grid. I am really curious, what exactly do you think happened? And this is an internet forum for crying out loud, not a court of law. Why not put forward your opinion if you disagree instead of asking me to lawyer up.

You said he was fired, I have never seen anything saying he was, so back up your statement. This may be a forum but you cannot simply post untruths. I don't have to explain anything YOU made the statement, I challenge it, it's up to you to back it up.

Stop diverting, it's simple, you said he was fired. Supply proof he was.

so Rons recent statement is this

'who struck the first blow' route, actually I would say Lewis had his role to play in starting this process which escalated."

So Lewis had a role to play, for me this means, in not softening the blow in driving faster in P1,P2,P3, Q1,Q2,Q3 and the race, and maybe forgetting that he was not in a spec series like GP and so it wasnt the done thing to request equality from the team.

So I say Monaco was the start, Ron called Lewis off, Lewis complained, Alonso was humiliated - theres the immaturity

https://www.auto123.com/en/racing-news/dennis-admits-difficult-relationship-with-alonso?artid=87576

Dennis admits that Alonso was particularly annoyed after Monaco, when the McLaren boss openly admitted to holding back Lewis Hamilton rather than simply celebrate Alonso's dominant win.

Dennis replied: "I am not perfect. The British press jumped on me, attacked me.

"It was difficult. I had to think about what was best for the team. What was put about in the media did affect our relationship. But we are trying to improve that.

"He absolutely deserved to win in Monaco. He drove one of the best races that I have even seen."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/legacy/andrewbenson/2010/05/alonso_overreaching_in_reargua.html

This has never come out before, but it was Dennis's actions after that race that so angered Alonso, and which convinced him the team would always be behind Hamilton and not him. That was the backdrop to the tumultuous fall-out that enveloped McLaren and Alonso as that famous 'spy-gate' summer unfolded.
As a McLaren insider revealed to me: "Fernando won in Monaco fair and square in 2007.
"Lewis was generally quicker through the weekend, but in qualifying Fernando did it and Lewis didn't. Lewis was quicker in the first run but then he made mistakes and Fernando got pole.
"Fernando won the race because he pulled an 11-second gap in the first stint when Lewis had (tyre) graining and after that Fernando was just cruising because we had rear brake issues.
"But after the race, Ron said to Fernando: 'Be nice to Lewis because we had to (pit) stop him early.' And Fernando said: 'What do you mean? I was just cruising.'


"He got very annoyed about that because it was like Ron saying we handed you the victory. Even after that, the relationship was unrecoverable."

Now these articles paint a certain picture, however when we look behind the story and see the real facts - its a different story, anyway this is where the fued started and so we need to trace the immaturity from lewis, we can clearly see Alonsos

In this race Lewis had a better strategy, he was carrying more fuel and his graining tyres would resolve and he would get quicker further into the race and the gap Alonso had built would be eaten dutring the extra laps Lewis could put in on lowest fuel - but Ron pitted him for nothing to gift Alonso the win
Lewis was oncourse to beat Alonso till the team pitted him for nothing - FACT
Alonso was first to break team protocols - doing extra Q2 runs to get preferential position for Q3 - FACT
Ron favoured Alonso in Monaco, yet Alonso wanted Ron to contradict Lewis that he didnt - theres the immaturity and the start of the end - these facts are available for F1 lap timings for anyone interested - FACT

more to come

[CookinFlat6]

So lets look at what was said about 2007 just after by Alonso and Ron and see if we can get pointers to where to look in 2007

One year on, Alonso still feels bitter
Fernando Alonso's lingering bitterness towards the McLaren-Mercedes team spilled over again in Budapest over the weekend as he said he didn't think he would be allowed to win if he was still driving for the British squad as their whole approach was slanted towards supporting Lewis Hamilton's efforts.

Alonso, who won the World Championship in 2005 and 06, was speaking on the first anniversary of his acrimonious split with McLaren in Budapest, a breach which ended with him rowing with chairman Ron Dennis and his right-hand man Martin Whitmarsh.

McLaren sources have since revealed that the Spanish driver was almost fired on the spot after deliberately blocking Hamilton during qualifying for the 2007 Hungarian grand prix, earning himself a five place grid penalty which dropped him from first to sixth in the starting order.

This is the point when the team started regarding Lewis as the driver who would still be there next year

[CookinFlat6]

And after finally arriving at his dream team Ferrari,

Alonso might be over-reaching in his attempts to take the Ferrari to places where it should not be, but there seems no chance of his relationship with his new team deteriorating in the same way.

For one thing, team principal Stefano Domenicali appears to have a deft hand when it comes to handling human relationships. For another, Massa, unlike Hamilton, clearly does not have the all-round ability to threaten Alonso on a regular basis.

But largely it is because Ferrari could not be more impressed with their new driver.

I understand that, even after just six races, they already feel that as a whole package - being a team player, technical feedback, his ability to read a race weekend and speed - Alonso is even better than Schumacher, the man who won five championships and 72 grands prix for the legendary Italian team.

Yes, you read that right. Ferrari have the feeling that Alonso is faster than Schumacher was at his best. (And yes, I know, the concept of him being a team player will raise smiles down at McLaren, after what happened there in 2007.)

Be that as it may, if the Ferrari fails to improve relative to its rivals, and Alonso continues to try too hard, then it will be hard to win the title in the face of the Red Bull's stunning speed.

But Ferrari are known to have a major aerodynamic upgrade due at some point in the next few races, about which they are very confident.

If that proves as good as they hope, allowing Alonso to take fewer risks and cut out the mistakes, then the Red Bull drivers may yet be beatable.

ouch

[CookinFlat6]

and heres our smoking gun

Ecclestone book reveals animosity with Dennis that cost McLaren
2011 F1 season

Tom Bower’s new book on Bernie Ecclestone shows how his hostility towards Ron Dennis cost McLaren dearly in 2007.

Ecclestone says: “When Flavio [Briatore] stuck a knife in my back, he charmed me and said, ‘It’s good for you to let out some blood.’

“But when Ron puts the knife in, he wants you to know that he’s in charge and he’s killed you.”

It shows how some of F1’s recent scandals were driven by jealousies between Ecclestone, Dennis, Briatore and former FIA president Max Mosley.

During the ‘spygate’ affair in 2007 Fernando Alonso waited until the Hungarian Grand Prix to threaten Dennis by revealing incriminating emails.

But he had already revealed their contents to Briatore two weeks earlier, who in turn had shared the details with Ecclestone and Mosley.

Ecclestone later talked Mosley down from banning McLaren for two years (“bit heavy”, he said) and instead imposing a record $100 million fine. Mosley joked that it was “$5 million for the offence and $95 million for Ron being a twat”.

Briatore was later embroiled in a cheating scandal but remains a close ally of Ecclestone’s. The pair share an unusual nickname for Lewis Hamilton -‘Jumbo’.

So Ron poaches Alonso from Fabio a full year early
Ron is missing a driver after Montoya did a runner after watching a GP2 race with test driver Lewis in
Ron promotes Lewis to the seat
Alonso is out paced constantly by lewis who finishes on the podium each race and buuilds up a lead
Monaco is the first race alonso thinks he has reasserted some respect - only to be told Lewis was held back
Lewis publicises the fact he was held back despite having the strategy that was about to convert to a win - the number 2 driver statement - (the immaturity Ron means, He shouldnt have rubbed the Spaniards face in it publically, only with a few digs like Ron does)
Alnoso broke teammate protocol in quali
Hungary - Lewis was faster, Alonso demanded he be underfueled and his car sabotaged to guarantee Alonso won on track, Ron refused
Alonso called his bluff and went to Max with the emails - basically screwed himself for next 5 years and screwed Ron - just for his egos sake - Ron called that wrong as it was ONLY ALONSO AND PDR using the data
McLaren got screwed

Ron is back

and has revised history back to the end of 2006, this time the blackmailer is handed a Massa type driver over the rookie

Lets see how long before the implosion to end all implosions

[CookinFlat6]

More from Alonso on his role, note he says he was very happy to help, but doesnt mention the immunity deal he cut with Max, Flabio, Bernie and Luca. He also doesnt mention that he was the only driver to have encouraged his engineers to use the data to improve his performance. Ofcourse we know that over crashgate - that happened after he was back with Flabio, who had actually contacted Max to say his driver was using illegal data - over crashgate an unnamed Renault employee was also given immunity for testifying in secret against Flabio and Symonds.

Fernando Alonso says he was 'very happy' to help Formula 1's ruling body, the FIA, uncover the spy saga that hit the sport in 2007.

McLaren was excluded from that year's championship and fined $100 million after it was discovered the team was in possession of Ferrari technical data.

Alonso was driving for the British team at the time and he collaborated with the FIA in making the spy row public.

Speaking in an interview with the Guardian newspaper on Tuesday, the two-time champion said he was happy to help the governing body.

"With the spy history I was in the wrong place at the wrong time," Alonso told the newspaper. "But I was very happy to help the FIA discover everything."

Till today no one knows who this mysterious employee X was, who got immunity from the FIA for singing like a canary about his team boss

Ofcourse people have always made claims about Witness Xs identity but no one knows anyone at the team who could fit the bill, or who would know details about a highly illegal act planned by the 2 team bosses - they wouldnt tell the tea lady now would they

Inmnterestingly enough Alonsos own teammate at Ferrari had an interesting idea

'It was the team and Nelson, but Alonso was part of the problem,' Massa is quoted as saying.

'He knew. We cannot know it, (but) of course he knew. Absolute certainty.'

Alonso has long maintained he was completely unaware of any plan and was cleared by the FIA, who handed Renault a suspended two-year lifetime ban from Formula One following a meeting of the World Motor Sport Council.

[What's Burning?]

Quite a bit of revisionist history going on, especially on the Ronspeak.

SKYF1
January: Alonso arrived as double world champion. And if his new Action Man crewcut was anything to go by, he was keen to impress his new boss who, as we all know, likes things to be just so. He’d signed in November 2005 - right after he'd won his first title in Brazil, in fact, when Dennis made overtures on the podium. Juan Pablo Montoya won that race from Raikkonen but both had left McLaren by the end of the following year.

When Dennis lured Alonso away from Renault, meanwhile, Hamilton had just won the F3 Euroseries; a McLaren protégé he might have been, but he didn’t figure then. However, a victorious GP2 campaign the following year, coupled with the departure of both their superstars (Montoya ahead of schedule) had suddenly placed him on the fast-track.

March: Alonso qualified second for the Australian GP, with Hamilton fourth. Both finished on the podium, well beaten by Raikkonen (now at Ferrari) but the rookie’s statement of intent – passing his team-mate at the start of the race – was duly noted. Meanwhile, Britain woke up to a new sporting hero.

May: Hamilton’s consistency (he eventually racked up nine podium finishes in his first nine races) gave him the championship lead by the Spanish GP. By then, Alonso knew his team-mate was the real deal. "After one or two races, we saw him become a championship contender and we still see him as one now," he said in Barcelona after finishing third behind Hamilton and the race winner, Ferrari's Felipe Massa. Yet he still seemed confident he would eventually prevail, adding: "But he is the one who worries me least because he is my team-mate and we are here to help each other.”

So far, so 'on message'. But Lewis had yet to win and after following Alonso home at Monaco, he was emboldened to say he felt he could have - but the team told him not to risk overtaking. Because of the team orders ban, the FIA announced an investigation but cleared McLaren of any wrongdoing.

June: Hamilton got the winning habit with back-to-back victories in Canada and Indianapolis. And Alonso was clearly getting frustrated: he chased Hamilton throughout the US GP but when his only real attempt to get past failed, he veered over to the McLaren pitwall next time around and gesticulated frantically. No estaba destinado a ser así!

World Championship standings after United States Grand Prix:
1 Hamilton - 58 points
2 Alonso - 48
3 Massa - 39
4 Raikkonen - 32

A storm was brewing in deepest Surrey, meanwhile, after McLaren’s chief designer Mike Coughlan was caught red-handed (after his wife had visited a photocopying shop) with 780-pages’ worth of Ferrari design documentation, sent by their disgruntled former chief mechanic Nigel Stepney. While both men were sacked by their teams, an FIA investigation could find no evidence the information had been seen by anyone else.

August: Qualifying at the Hungarian GP brings a reminder of those pointless ‘fuel-burning’ laps cars did on Saturday back then. Alonso and Hamilton took to the track and cruised around for a while before getting down to the nitty gritty. Except Hamilton had passed Alonso when he wasn’t supposed to and Alonso retaliated by spending too long in the pits - complete with more theatrical hand gestures - which meant Hamilton didn’t have enough time to get a final lap in.

Alonso took pole but was later docked five places on the grid after stewards decided he'd "unnecessarily impeded another driver". The fuse was lit, then, and it duly detonated on race morning when, during an argument with Dennis, Alonso reputedly told him he had emails relating to the Ferrari leak. Regardless of the perception of what transpired – an alleged attempt at blackmail in order to secure No 1 status – he soon apologised, but not before Dennis informed FIA president Max Mosley of what was said.

September: After re-opening its investigation into what is now known as ‘Spygate’, the FIA decided that McLaren did after all disseminate Ferrari’s technical data and fined them $100m. They were also thrown out of the Constructors’ Championship and later had to prove (successfully) that their 2008 car was legal. Mosley (no friend of Dennis’s) rubbed it in somewhat by saying they’d “polluted the championship”.

By now Dennis and Alonso were no longer talking. "The relationship between Fernando and myself is extremely cold," said the former during the FIA's hearing. "That is an understatement." Meanwhile, the latter’s hirsute-ness (much longer hair now while the razor was getting left at home) told its own story. Maybe.

October: Hamilton had led the title race all summer and appeared increasingly destined to become world champion after winning in the murk of a rainsodden Fuji. However, the following weekend in China found his car dribbling into the gravel at the pit-lane entry – his first retirement of the season. Alonso crashed out of the Japanese GP but finished second in China behind Raikkonen, whose own title push was, all of a sudden, gathering momentum.

There was even a whiff of paranoia in the air at Interlagos after an FIA steward was dispatched to McLaren’s pit to ensure equal treatment; having demanded to be No 1 for so long, Alonso now seemed concerned he’d been passed over completely.

Come the race, though, it was Hamilton out in the cold; dropping to eighth place from second on the grid on lap one (he got a little too close at Turn 4 trying to re-pass Alonso, who responded by braking a little too hard and sending him out on to the run-off) a gearbox problem then sent him plummeting to 18th. He recovered to finish seventh but Raikkonen won and took the title, overhauling a 17-point gap in the last two races.

Alonso finished third to tie Hamilton in the standings, just one point behind Raikkonen, but was gone the following month. “For some reason the combination of McLaren-Mercedes and Fernando has not really worked out,” Dennis said at the time, although he now claims he’s “moved on”. Likewise, Alonso says he’s older now (although still capable of making his feelings plainly felt, let’s say, if rumours about his last months at Ferrari are anything to go by).

A whole lot depends on the car, of course. McLaren’s 2007 MP4-22 was arguably the last great F1 car Alonso drove. He has challenged for the title in a Ferrari a couple of times since, but the best seat has always lain elsewhere – emphatically so in 2012, when only his own brilliance took him to within four points of another title. In terms of personal performance, that season could well stand as the high watermark of his career.

So history might not bode too well but who’s to say they can’t make it work this time? Warm personal relations actually mean very little if the protagonists are seeking a common goal. A telling quote from Dennis last time around was: "My job is to win the world championship; my job isn't for people to love and hug me. If I have difficult relationships with people I have difficult relationships with them." The Blair/Brown relationship was subsequently revealed as not just cold but toxic; yet no one can say the New Labour project wasn’t a success.

After broken promises and tantrums, Gordon finally got the keys to Number 10 in June 2007 - around the same time ‘Spygate’ blew up, coincidentally, the hefty nudge that tipped Alonso/Dennis over the edge. Two distinct problems overlapped and created a perfect storm that caused an awful lot of damage.

But circumstances change and so, to an extent, do people. Let’s see what happens this time.