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#429841
Another stat, when the season begins in 2015 Lewis will be the 'most loyal champ/double champ' in F1 history....to have only driven and won races for 1 engine maker in the sport.

I believe Vettel would share this but his years at TR were Ferrari engines if not mistaken.
#429846
The main thing that the Lewis 'detractors' are not humouring us with is the big elephant in the room that they created and are refusing to address.

either Lewis is fantastically good on track with inate talent above everyone else (the best Senna type driver)

or

he is fantastically complete above everyone else, (the best Prost type driver)

or ofcourse the unthinkable - He is the best driver ever

If Alonso was most complete - then he has whipped Alonso in the off track positioning game, as well as the 'best driver in best car' role. And he has 2 WDCS in 2 teams so absolutely no argument for luck there.

If Lewis was lacking in the cerebral or intellectual area where the only benefit is adaptability and getting the best out of the equipment, then he has destroyed Nico, and Seb who has not been able to survive a reg change

If Lewis was lacking in the political or motivation stakes, then he whips Seb and Alonso, in making moves based not on money or romance but in results

And the best one of all, if Lewis is an Alonso type agitator, that started the trouble off with Alonso in 2007 and was to blame - then he is the best of all, as it destabilsed and effectively neutered his only rival for a long period after, allowing Lewis to end up in the top dog position of 'best driver in best car' - the aim of every legendary driver in history

shame they all went silent
#429863
Deciding who is the best driver of all time is impossible because cars have evolved massively since 1950; personally I would suggest Fangio is the best driver of all time because back then it was more about driving ability as there was nothing more than a big engine, 3 pedals, gearshift and a chassis that would likely kill you if you crashed.

That aside, is Lewis the best of his generation, maybe, I would say it's between him and Alonso, Vettel needs to prove himself without a class leading car to be elevated to the level or Alonso and Hamilton. I don't think that anyone can deny Hamilton's talent, you don't become 2xWDC without having immense talent.
#429870
As you say it is hard to pick the best of all time. Who is to say Fangio would of been able to deal with the complexity of modern F1 cars? Then you think of some of his peers like the Bull. I would have more chance of fitting into a modern F1 car than him.
#429874
As you say it is hard to pick the best of all time. Who is to say Fangio would of been able to deal with the complexity of modern F1 cars? Then you think of some of his peers like the Bull. I would have more chance of fitting into a modern F1 car than him.

Now, now Jabbsy, that's a fib :rofl:
#429878
Deciding who is the best driver of all time is impossible because cars have evolved massively since 1950; personally I would suggest Fangio is the best driver of all time because back then it was more about driving ability as there was nothing more than a big engine, 3 pedals, gearshift and a chassis that would likely kill you if you crashed.

That aside, is Lewis the best of his generation, maybe, I would say it's between him and Alonso, Vettel needs to prove himself without a class leading car to be elevated to the level or Alonso and Hamilton. I don't think that anyone can deny Hamilton's talent, you don't become 2xWDC without having immense talent.


Good point there in that it is not possible to declare the GOAT due to eras. What we can look at is the generation and the drivers delta to his generation. He would have to be indisputably the best of his generation, or at least arguably so, like Senna v Prost. I think Alonso and Lewis are the best of this generation. However his claim to be indisputably better than Alonso grows with the evidence and ofcourse can only be truly assessed at the end of both careers, with Alonso in the last chance saloon and Lewis in the top dog role for now.

My point was that, the metric Alonso is most feted by - completeness and effectiveness is now demonstrably owned by Lewis. Its just that the pundits who declare Alonso best because of these traits have now gone silent when its time to make another comparison based on the latest facts. The TPs believe Lewis in a top car is better than Alonso by more than Seb was in a top car, so Sebs claim appears to have faded. Alonsos claim by dragging a lesser car above its place was not seen as ultimately better than Seb in the best car last year.

And we know that Lewis is faster in quali and in the race - from when they were teammates and since then Lewis is the indisuted 'most complete' of the bunch. 2 WDCs in 2 teams, dragging a car up the grid in 2009, dominant in a dominant car and then the all important metric of quality teammate. Alonso has not had this and choked the one time he did have it. Whereas Lewis has despatched alonso, Button and Nico in fine style. Lapping one in identical cars in normal conditions, beating another on pole from the back, and ofcourse beating the other as a rookie.

just a shame the stats experts and the brundles etc have not yet seen fit to compare the 2 with the new data we have such as most wins in a certain number of races, qualis, fastest laps etc. And even picking the right teams and producing results. Alonsos stock has been reduced by his failure at Ferrari, either the teams fault or his, but ultimately his responsibility and his reputation. Any unbiased pundit asked to compare the 2 today would have to conclude there is no evidence at all anymore that Alonso is the best.

And the TPs say lewis is by a bigger margin than previous best of the years
User avatar
By sagi58
#429892
...My point was that, the metric Alonso is most feted by - completeness and effectiveness is now demonstrably owned by Lewis. Its just that the pundits who declare Alonso best because of these traits have now gone silent when its time to make another comparison based on the latest facts...


ONE very salient FACT is that Hamilton is in a 2-second car.
Let's not ignore THAT part of the equation.
#429895
...My point was that, the metric Alonso is most feted by - completeness and effectiveness is now demonstrably owned by Lewis. Its just that the pundits who declare Alonso best because of these traits have now gone silent when its time to make another comparison based on the latest facts...


ONE very salient FACT is that Hamilton is in a 2-second car.
Let's not ignore THAT part of the equation.


I already covered that when I set out my logical arguments, maybe you didnt realise it.
The TPs believe Lewis in a top car is better than Alonso by more than Seb was in a top car, so Sebs claim appears to have faded. Alonsos claim by dragging a lesser car above its place was not seen as ultimately better than Seb in the best car last year.

I think the TPs know that Lewis is in a 2 sec car - thats why I mentioned quality of teammate.

Seriously sagi, I dont see the milage in you doing anything other than maybe read the post and move on. You can only get involved by offering objections based on emotion, feel, passion or other motives, not based on the facts, as you yourself will agree that you dont know enough about factual F1. And so despite my laying out all my reasons in the post you dont understand what some mean.
So this would be pointless to continue, MS didnt develop the hybrid during V8 races for example, but that doesnt stop you using your opinions to counter factual based suggestions.
The last thing we want is to start exchanging posts on that basis, putting off the members who dont like to see such things as well as putting off those who prefer bringing jokey latent smuttiness to replace F1 detail. So lets just cut to the chase and say you are right - Lewis has a 2 sec car that the TPs have not considered and so Alonso is the best driver :thumbup:
User avatar
By sagi58
#429896
...My point was that, the metric Alonso is most feted by - completeness and effectiveness is now demonstrably owned by Lewis. Its just that the pundits who declare Alonso best because of these traits have now gone silent when its time to make another comparison based on the latest facts...


ONE very salient FACT is that Hamilton is in a 2-second car.
Let's not ignore THAT part of the equation.


I already covered that when I set out my logical arguments, maybe you didnt realise it.
The TPs believe Lewis in a top car is better than Alonso by more than Seb was in a top car, so Sebs claim appears to have faded. Alonsos claim by dragging a lesser car above its place was not seen as ultimately better than Seb in the best car last year.

I think the TPs know that Lewis is in a 2 sec car - thats why I mentioned quality of teammate.

Seriously sagi, I dont see the milage in you doing anything other than maybe read the post and move on. You can only get involved by offering objections based on emotion, feel, passion or other motives, not based on the facts, as you yourself will agree that you dont know enough about factual F1. And so despite my laying out all my reasons in the post you dont understand what some mean.
So this would be pointless to continue, MS didnt develop the hybrid during V8 races for example, but that doesnt stop you using your opinions to counter factual based suggestions.
So lets just cut to the chase and say you are right - Lewis has a 2 sec car that the TPs have not considered and so Alonso is the best driver :thumbup:


Once again, your condescension really does get you top mention! :thumbup:

I did read your disclaimer; however, the rest of your comment is
based on little more than comparisons that are not of merit, since
no one else (except Rosberg) was in the same 2-second car. And,
I'll save myself the time of doing a search on how many times, over
the season you berated Hamilton's "teammate", who suddenly has
become a great example to compare him to.

Ironically, even if you do "use" facts in all your comments, you own
emotion and passion where Hamilton is concerned is quite notable. :wink:
#429898
There you go, your response is what I'm talking about, there no logic to your objection and you now widen the focus to other things. Basically you just want to object, and it doesnt matter if your objection is dismissed as you will keep grasping at straws or anything just to continue the ad hominem. No matter what happens you are gonna tell me Im wrong about things but without you understanding what I have said, how I am wrong, what i am wrong about etc etc

So please forgive me if this is my last reply, btw why dont you spend energy on reading the engine regs, its just not normal that you still have not found the time to learn how MS could have developed the hybrid during V8 races. Why waste energy moving on to more abstract concepts like how the TPs can decide which driver was better despite a gulf in their equipment

Lets discuss in future :thumbup:
User avatar
By sagi58
#429901
... Lets discuss in future :thumbup:


Let's not! Since, your own response to attack the member instead of what's posted is very predictable.
Better to agree to disagree as adults, without the name calling! :wink:
#429903
For three seasons Rosberg wiped the floor with his 7 time WDC teammate so he's more than a good driver.
User avatar
By sagi58
#429908
Wiped the floor? Bit of an exaggeration, in my opinion.

2010 - first year back, a grace period.

2011 - difference of 13 points; with Schumi having 3 more DNFs.

2012 - difference of 44 points, with Schumi having 4 more DNFs.

If I were prone to believing in conspiracy theories, I'd say Rosberg
was being given the better equipment.

I'm not; however, it is interesting to note the huge difference in how
many races Schumi didn't complete. Especially, in light of the fact
that Mercedes was working/developing/designing for the future.

p.s. for the technically-minded:
Synergies between F1 and Road Car Development: Efficiency equals performance
#429909

I'm not; however, it is interesting to note the huge difference in how
many races Schumi didn't complete. Especially, in light of the fact
that Mercedes was working/developing/designing for the future.


So MS was developing parts for the hybrid, and thats why Nico beat him :thumbup:
#429927
The fact remains, that mercedes actively pursued Hamilton and ditched Schumacher.

Didn't even keep him on to continue to develop their V6 Turbo PU in the V8 powered car. :rolleyes:
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