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[racechick]

I rate Alonso very, very hghly. but I dont buy into the 'most complete driver' theory. He lacks qualifying speed and can't always get the decisive job done in critical race situations. So he isn't 'complete' . But he's damn good, no doubt about that!

[CookinFlat6]

Yes he is damn good, he is smart, clever, persistent, pragmatic, mature, cunning, a winners attitude, he is a leader of men etc etc etc

But on a race track in a 3 sec car, he is slower than Lewis and Nico. Nico edged Lewis in quali, a driver 1/10 slower by default wouldnt have. And Lewis on pole each race against Nico we know would have won each race - so Alonso behind even if equal to Lewis in racecraft and race day ummpfh, aint gonna be passing either. ergo Lewis has an easier time vs Alonso than vs Nico - ofcourse this is assuming no issues, but if 60% of races are like this..........

[Ferrari man 009]

If we put the Alonso respect (deserves it, no doubt) to a side for a second and think about it, How would Alonso consistently pass Lewis on track? He would have to be able to do this like Lewis did to Nico to avoid a plastering - who really thinks Alonso could pass Lewis in races like Lewis passes Nico?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q3P3-hrAFE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml3zTFqNefI

[CookinFlat6]

Yes, but the point is despite all that he still got beat in 2007

[racechick]

Ferrariman Alonso is exceptionally good, there's no denying that, and someone who is exceptionally good will sometimes beat the outstanding, the phenomenal,thats how it goes.

[Ferrari man 009]

Yes, but the point is despite all that he still got beat in 2007

Not sure beat is correct. They both finished equal 2nd on 109 points and 4 wins each.

[What's Burning?]

Yes, but the point is despite all that he still got beat in 2007

Not sure beat is correct. They both finished equal 2nd on 109 points and 4 wins each.

Keep going, then they count 2nd place finishes, then 3rd place finishes and so on. The F1 site list Hamilton second for a reason. Pretty dammed impressive rookie season. I always chuckle at the hurdles placed in front of the Hamster, imagine what folks on this board would be saying about Mags should he have matched Button's performance let alone come within 1 point of the WDC, but for Hamilton we argue about the symantecs of whether he finished 2nd or 3rd. It's really missing the big picture IMO, wouldn't you say?

[CookinFlat6]

Like I detailed in my previous post, back in 2007 Lewis was faster in quali and in races, Alonso was only better and faster by when he exploited his superior setup, tyre and race management. And since then lewis has mastered those areas.

Therefore I feel confident to stake the claim that Lewis would out qualify Alonso consistently and would stay ahead of him in those races on balance

leading to my claim that still stands - Lewis would have an easier time against Alonso in a 3 sec Merc next year thats more reliable and with an even bigger margin to the rest. In fact I went as far as saying Lewis would do to him near what Alonso did to Kimi.

barring luck, Lewis would win pole to flag 60% of the races, Alonso would win the ones he started on pole, say maybe 20% of the races, the other 20% would be when one or the other starts from mid grid etc by grid drop or drops at the start or other issue, then we could split those, leaving Alonso battered 30-70 of Mercs wins

[overboost]

Like I detailed in my previous post, back in 2007 Lewis was faster in quali and in races, Alonso was only better and faster by when he exploited his superior setup, tyre and race management. And since then lewis has mastered those areas.

Therefore I feel confident to stake the claim that Lewis would out qualify Alonso consistently and would stay ahead of him in those races on balance

leading to my claim that still stands - Lewis would have an easier time against Alonso in a 3 sec Merc next year thats more reliable and with an even bigger margin to the rest. In fact I went as far as saying Lewis would do to him near what Alonso did to Kimi.

barring luck, Lewis would win pole to flag 60% of the races, Alonso would win the ones he started on pole, say maybe 20% of the races, the other 20% would be when one or the other starts from mid grid etc by grid drop or drops at the start or other issue, then we could split those, leaving Alonso battered 30-70 of Mercs wins

Since you are using 2007 as a guide to a present day comparison:

Back in 2007 it was 10-7 for Alonso in the races and using the present day points system Alonso beats Hamilton 266 to 265.

As well Hamilton in 2014 barely prevailed over Nico Rosberg who is ok but not a top tier driver. Taking on top in F1 Alonso now at the peak of his powers would not go so well for Hamilton imo.

[Hammer278]

If we put the Alonso respect (deserves it, no doubt) to a side for a second and think about it, How would Alonso consistently pass Lewis on track? He would have to be able to do this like Lewis did to Nico to avoid a plastering - who really thinks Alonso could pass Lewis in races like Lewis passes Nico?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q3P3-hrAFE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml3zTFqNefI

One video of Alonso overtaking a Mule of a Merc (crap on heavy fuel) at the start of a race.

Another video of Alonso overtaking Lewis who is running an aggressive strategy and staying out way after the pit window...ergo dead tyres.

You can surely do better.

[Hammer278]

Like I detailed in my previous post, back in 2007 Lewis was faster in quali and in races, Alonso was only better and faster by when he exploited his superior setup, tyre and race management. And since then lewis has mastered those areas.

Therefore I feel confident to stake the claim that Lewis would out qualify Alonso consistently and would stay ahead of him in those races on balance

leading to my claim that still stands - Lewis would have an easier time against Alonso in a 3 sec Merc next year thats more reliable and with an even bigger margin to the rest. In fact I went as far as saying Lewis would do to him near what Alonso did to Kimi.

barring luck, Lewis would win pole to flag 60% of the races, Alonso would win the ones he started on pole, say maybe 20% of the races, the other 20% would be when one or the other starts from mid grid etc by grid drop or drops at the start or other issue, then we could split those, leaving Alonso battered 30-70 of Mercs wins

Since you are using 2007 as a guide to a present day comparison:

Back in 2007 it was 10-7 for Alonso in the races and using the present day points system Alonso beats Hamilton 266 to 265.

As well Hamilton in 2014 barely prevailed over Nico Rosberg who is ok but not a top tier driver. Taking on top in F1 Alonso now at the peak of his powers would not go so well for Hamilton imo.

Back in 2007 Hamilton was a rookie. And even with the 10-7, the fact remains that he BEAT Alonso that year. Before the Hungary debacle (where the blackmailer Spaniard struck with his politics) Hamilton had a comfortable lead over him anyway.

Nico the not so top tier driver smashed Schumacher 2 years running and sent him back to retirement.

Alonso is now at the 'peak of his powers' at the age of 30+ and Hamilton should now be what...worse than his rookie year?

You surely can't do better, so no surprise here.

[overboost]

Like I detailed in my previous post, back in 2007 Lewis was faster in quali and in races, Alonso was only better and faster by when he exploited his superior setup, tyre and race management. And since then lewis has mastered those areas.

Therefore I feel confident to stake the claim that Lewis would out qualify Alonso consistently and would stay ahead of him in those races on balance

leading to my claim that still stands - Lewis would have an easier time against Alonso in a 3 sec Merc next year thats more reliable and with an even bigger margin to the rest. In fact I went as far as saying Lewis would do to him near what Alonso did to Kimi.

barring luck, Lewis would win pole to flag 60% of the races, Alonso would win the ones he started on pole, say maybe 20% of the races, the other 20% would be when one or the other starts from mid grid etc by grid drop or drops at the start or other issue, then we could split those, leaving Alonso battered 30-70 of Mercs wins

Since you are using 2007 as a guide to a present day comparison:

Back in 2007 it was 10-7 for Alonso in the races and using the present day points system Alonso beats Hamilton 266 to 265.

As well Hamilton in 2014 barely prevailed over Nico Rosberg who is ok but not a top tier driver. Taking on top in F1 Alonso now at the peak of his powers would not go so well for Hamilton imo.

Back in 2007 Hamilton was a rookie. And even with the 10-7, the fact remains that he BEAT Alonso that year. Before the[b] Hungary debacle (where the blackmailer Spaniard struck with his politics)[/b] Hamilton had a comfortable lead over him anyway.

Nico the not so top tier driver smashed Schumacher 2 years running and sent him back to retirement.

Alonso is now at the 'peak of his powers' at the age of 30+ and Hamilton should now be what...worse than his rookie year?

You surely can't do better, so no surprise here.

Actually at Hungary 2007 I recall it was Hamilton disobeying team orders leading to Alonso's retaliating. Lucky for Hamilton in a way because the resulting penalty cost Alonso the championship and allowed Lewis to 'beat' Alonso but also unlucky as the extra points Raikkonen picked up for finishing ahead of Alonso cost both Hamilton and Alonso the championship all things being equal.

Well it was three years running that Rosberg smashed Schumacher and ended his comeback. But imo and in that of many others it was mainly due to the passing of time and Schumachers legendary skills fading rather than Rosberg talents. Even Schumacher seemed to agree naming Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton and Raikkonen as the top tier of F1 when asked in 2013.

http://www.grandprix247.com/2013/07/27/ ... f-his-own/

Alonso is recognized as driving as well or better than he ever has after the way he persevered with the ill handling and under powered Ferrari with a wdc teammate far adrift. He also would have learned from his 2007 experience to become a stronger minded and more focused driver.

Compare to Hamilton who had difficulty dispatching good driver Rosberg even though he was driving a car he says he was totally comfortable in and "the best he has ever driven". He had issues in qually all season as well which is something that wasn't there earlier in his career.

Alonso imo would be too much for Lewis to handle.

[CookinFlat6]

But imo and in that of many others it was mainly due to the passing of time and Schumachers legendary skills fading rather than Rosberg talents. Even Schumacher seemed to agree naming Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton and Raikkonen as the top tier of F1 when asked in 2013..

Yes you have proved your claim MS' old age senility affected his driving when he returned by confirming that MS picked Kimi as a great yet ignoring the guy who whipped him silly 3 years in a row. By the way, have you looked on wiki to see how old all the WDCS drivers have been each year? MS was a pup compared to Fangio - yes it was a different era?
What kind of driver doesnt know how bad his driving has become after 2 years out and comes back to get whipped? - A great driver? or a customised tyre, shackled team mate and FIA veto driver, 2014 hybrid developer?

This is a hit and run post, to avoid the splatter of the DAF

[What's Burning?]

Even Schumacher seemed to agree naming Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton and Raikkonen as the top tier of F1 when asked in 2013.

...and we saw how it turned out in 2014 for Raikkonen and Vettel didn't we?

[Hammer278]

Alonso is recognized as driving as well or better than he ever has after the way he persevered with the ill handling and under powered Ferrari with a wdc teammate far adrift. He also would have learned from his 2007 experience to become a stronger minded and more focused driver.

Compare to Hamilton who had difficulty dispatching good driver Rosberg even though he was driving a car he says he was totally comfortable in and "the best he has ever driven". He had issues in qually all season as well which is something that wasn't there earlier in his career.

Alonso imo would be too much for Lewis to handle.

I'm confused, so are you saying Hamilton is incapable of learning? Or improving? You kep talking about The Fonz becoming "stronger and more focused because of 2007, what about Hamilton? It was his ROOKIE year, I would think he had more scope for development compared to a halfway weathered double world champion who is now a senior citizen and probably on his way out soon after being a failed experiment with Ferrari.