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[What's Burning?]

........The have-not teams have to do the best they can in getting through 2015 and then prepare for the new democratic rules in 2016.....

OB - how are the 2015 rules not democratic?

For 2015 Merc has vetoed the majority. In 2016 the engine rules will be decided by majority vote.

Um, it's not a "veto" for there to be a veto there would have to be a vote and a team with the power to override the results of the vote. Mercedes is simply agreeing to the rules Renault and Ferrari and Mercedes and Honda agreed to as well.

I'm starting to think that you are never going to at the very least read and educate yourself before declaring that the sky is green. You can say something all you want, but you're wrong, you'll always be wrong and now you're simply looking rather foolish by repeating stuff that's been clearly debunked in many references here. Please stop the littering, I'm afraid you'll put off perspective members by making the forum seem as if it's permeated with the stench of fresh fertilizer.

[overboost]

........The have-not teams have to do the best they can in getting through 2015 and then prepare for the new democratic rules in 2016.....

OB - how are the 2015 rules not democratic?

For 2015 Merc has vetoed the majority. In 2016 the engine rules will be decided by majority vote.

Um, it's not a "veto" for there to be a veto there would have to be a vote and a team with the power to override the results of the vote. Mercedes is simply agreeing to the rules Renault and Ferrari and Mercedes and Honda agreed to as well.

I'm starting to think that you are never going to at the very least read and educate yourself before declaring that the sky is green. You can say something all you want, but you're wrong, you'll always be wrong and now you're simply looking rather foolish by repeating stuff that's been clearly debunked in many references here. Please stop the littering, I'm afraid you'll put off perspective members by making the forum seem as if it's permeated with the stench of fresh fertilizer.

I see that you like to see Mercedes in a certain way but yes the Merc block voted to not support the relaxation of the failed engine freeze.

http://formulaspy.com/news/formula-1-ne ... reeze-6753

To make matters worse Wolfe had first given his word in favour of removing the freeze and later reneged. Stench indeed.

[f1boy]

Red Bull should go back to making energy drinks imo.
What do Red Bull know about building engines ffs?? Nothing.

Merc and Honda has been building roads cars for decades. Ferrari should be doing better.

[racechick]

The Mercedes bloc didn't agree to an unfreeze in Singapore ,they were prepared to listen to discussion about it. When the proposal finally came,parts of it were unacceptable to Mercedes. The part that said they have to carry all the cost and update all their teams simultaneously. That's 8 cars for Mercedes. It will only be two cars for Honda, four for Ferrari. I don't know how many Renault engined cars will be left on the grid with the expensive price they charge for their engines. Mercedes already offer the cheapest and best engine, but upgrading eight cars simultaneously throughout the year was unacceptable.

You also consistently avoid the point that engine makers have been free to develop their 2015 engines flat out without restriction in parallel to their 2014 programme. These engines will be very different to the 2014 ones because they'll have been able to copy what Merc did yet already Renault are about six months behind with it.

You also avoid the issue that they haven't developped the current engine to the level they're allowed.

[CookinFlat6]

Who cares about truth or facts in lalaland where things are how they are

If we don't agree with these half bakers they might run away from the forum because no one agrees with their opinion.

No matter how many times you show the truth in a post of discussion they ignore it and keep lying then hopefully flounce off

[LewEngBridewell]

What do Red Bull know about building engines ffs?? Nothing.

Well, they certainly know how to make championship winning cars...

[What's Burning?]

What do Red Bull know about building engines ffs?? Nothing.

Well, they certainly know how to make championship winning cars...

When their wings flex and then again only under certain regulations, the slate was wiped clean though this year, for sure.

[overboost]

The Mercedes bloc didn't agree to an unfreeze in Singapore ,they were prepared to listen to discussion about it. When the proposal finally came,parts of it were unacceptable to Mercedes. The part that said they have to carry all the cost and update all their teams simultaneously. That's 8 cars for Mercedes. It will only be two cars for Honda, four for Ferrari. I don't know how many Renault engined cars will be left on the grid with the expensive price they charge for their engines. Mercedes already offer the cheapest and best engine, but upgrading eight cars simultaneously throughout the year was unacceptable.

You also consistently avoid the point that engine makers have been free to develop their 2015 engines flat out without restriction in parallel to their 2014 programme. These engines will be very different to the 2014 ones because they'll have been able to copy what Merc did yet already Renault are about six months behind with it.

You also avoid the issue that they haven't developped the current engine to the level they're allowed.

Yes, as you say then, "unacceptable to Mercedes" so no engine rule changes allowed. Thanks. Now that wasn't so hard to admit was it?!

"F1's Strategy Group approved the idea of allowing limited in-season development of engines in the future, even though Mercedes, Lotus and Williams voted against it."

Simply put they voted against it. They cited some unknown costs but fear of not maintaining their 2 sec/lap advantage was their real interest, to suggest otherwise is being naive at best.

Yes, everyone understands the current rules restricting engines to once a year updates which you are consistently repeating.What we are talking about is additional in-season engine updates to allow teams to compete as the season progresses, no freeze, this includes Mercedes by the way.

And yes we have already discussed the level of current development, it has not been avoided as you say.

[CookinFlat6]

Yes, everyone understands the current rules restricting engines to once a year updates which you are consistently repeating.What we are talking about is additional in-season engine updates to allow teams to compete as the season progresses, no freeze, this includes Mercedes by the way.
.

everyone understands things except when it comes to MS designing the Hybrid, and additional in season engine updates to allow the teams blahblahblah

Only the engine makers can make updates
Updates cost a huge amount because precision engines have to be bench tested anytime ANYTHING significant changes - performance update are significant or the wouldnt be updates - reliability updates can be a like for like replacement

They loser teams dont need extra updates, they cant even develop the 1 yearly update to the limit - they never wanted this - they just want to start again with new engine designs copied exactly from Merc - like Ferrari have half done, before realising they need to start from scratch - so its all over till 2017

If there are only 2 extra updates during the season, the cost for Merc is 3 times the cost of benchtesting once. Why 2 only, why not 10, or why not like you claim is best AFTER EACH RACE

The answer to that is the teams collectively decided 1 update a year was enough, above that the cost increase is stupid as no one catches up and overtakes because of an update

So MS designs the hybrid and each team can update their own engines after each race, like in the V8 era perhaps, and this will allow Marrussia and Caterham to stay in business?

You are clueless

[overboost]

Who cares about truth or facts in lalaland where things are how they are

If we don't agree with these half bakers they might run away from the forum because no one agrees with their opinion.

No matter how many times you show the truth in a post of discussion they ignore it and keep lying then hopefully flounce off

Again with your one line, last word posts punctuated with insults. I really don't think you can control yourself cooking. And where is this self proclaimed great "debater"? Now declaring that anyone who should dare disagree are "half baked liars". Is this what you call debate?

[racechick]

The Mercedes bloc didn't agree to an unfreeze in Singapore ,they were prepared to listen to discussion about it. When the proposal finally came,parts of it were unacceptable to Mercedes. The part that said they have to carry all the cost and update all their teams simultaneously. That's 8 cars for Mercedes. It will only be two cars for Honda, four for Ferrari. I don't know how many Renault engined cars will be left on the grid with the expensive price they charge for their engines. Mercedes already offer the cheapest and best engine, but upgrading eight cars simultaneously throughout the year was unacceptable.

You also consistently avoid the point that engine makers have been free to develop their 2015 engines flat out without restriction in parallel to their 2014 programme. These engines will be very different to the 2014 ones because they'll have been able to copy what Merc did yet already Renault are about six months behind with it.

You also avoid the issue that they haven't developped the current engine to the level they're allowed.

Yes, as you say then, "unacceptable to Mercedes" so no engine rule changes allowed. Thanks. Now that wasn't so hard to admit was it?!

Yes that's right unacceptable to Mercedes. Not hard to admit at all, it's what I've just written. Not sure what point you're trying to make there.

I consistently repeat the point about updating the engine because you seem to consistently misunderstand. Renault can't develop a 2015 engine WITH UNRESTRICTED DEVELOPMENT, it's behind schedule. And they haven't developed all they can on this years. I repeat these things because you don't address them. Why haven't Renault got their act together with the 2015 engine? Why haven't the used this years tokens that they are allowed to update with?

[CookinFlat6]

The Mercedes bloc didn't agree to an unfreeze in Singapore ,they were prepared to listen to discussion about it. When the proposal finally came,parts of it were unacceptable to Mercedes. The part that said they have to carry all the cost and update all their teams simultaneously. That's 8 cars for Mercedes. It will only be two cars for Honda, four for Ferrari. I don't know how many Renault engined cars will be left on the grid with the expensive price they charge for their engines. Mercedes already offer the cheapest and best engine, but upgrading eight cars simultaneously throughout the year was unacceptable.

You also consistently avoid the point that engine makers have been free to develop their 2015 engines flat out without restriction in parallel to their 2014 programme. These engines will be very different to the 2014 ones because they'll have been able to copy what Merc did yet already Renault are about six months behind with it.

You also avoid the issue that they haven't developped the current engine to the level they're allowed.

Yes, as you say then, "unacceptable to Mercedes" so no engine rule changes allowed. Thanks. Now that wasn't so hard to admit was it?!

Yes that's right unacceptable to Mercedes. Not hard to admit at all, it's what I've just written. Not sure what point you're trying to make there.

I consistently repeat the point about updating the engine because you seem to consistently misunderstand. Renault can't develop a 2015 engine WITH UNRESTRICTED DEVELOPMENT, it's behind schedule. And they haven't developed all they can on this years. I repeat these things because you don't address them. Why haven't Renault got their act together with the 2015 engine? Why haven't the used this years tokens that they are allowed to update with?

there is a long statement by Renault that explains this once one gets over the eye glaze by sentence 12 but the who say MS designed the engine and that updates after each race cuts costs dobnt understand what they read as they are only looking for a word that sounds good to use in post

[What's Burning?]

My opinion has to be given equal weight to your facts!

[sagi58]

Ah... The "quote-worthy" Ali G!

[CookinFlat6]

So the expertz, maintain the following, and all their posts are based on these 'inconsistent opinions'

MS developed the Hybrid PU during races in the V8s
MS influenced the 2014 chassis

Teams can make updates to their own engines after each race

No freeze on number of updates will lead to lower engine costs
Merc are stiffing competition by allowing the other teams NOT to use all the development credits available to them for 1 update
Changing from 1 update to 21 updates (after each race) will be true engine competition like F1 had before 2014

Ok I am just gonna cut and paste this whenever I see the expertz make an expertz post