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[Jabberwocky]

I am talking about chassis here and not the overall package.

It is obvious that the works teams have an advantage over the non work teams. So Mercedes, Redbull, and Ferrari have an advantage from the start.

If we remove the advantage of the Mercedes engine. Mercedes has done a good job and has come on leaps and bounds in the last few years.

I still think that Redbull has an edge when it comes to chassis design.

then again look how far again Ferrari are compared to its customers, but then again is the Ferrari engine that bad or is just poor customers.

[CookinFlat6]

Very interesting question that has been neglected with all the angst over the engine.

Red Bull obviously have a chassis thats better than all the other teams bar Mercedes. We know this by looking at the Merc customers strengths when the engine advantage is lessened.

Mercedes IMO have taken the chassis to a different level not seen before, not even in the last 4 years from RBR. Simply pout even if you put the Merc lump in the Red Bull I think Merc would still win on every type of circuit. Ofcourse the level of integration of the Merc chassis/engine is way better than RBRs so to be fair we would have to give RBR a chance to integrate the engine with their chassis early in the design stage, but thats not gonna happen and Newey is off, so its academic

So Merc best chassis, then RBR, then Williams. Williams are obviously better than the others are actually on par with or better than RBR on more and more circuits.
Also we need to remember that Williams, like McLaren have been on the 'wrong' fuel, using Petrobas instead of Petronas, which wil change nextyear.

The Ferrari are maybe closer to Mclaren now on chassis, but were way ahead all season, Force India have fallen away, and the rest might as well be in F2

[What's Burning?]

It's an interesting question which I've thought about. It's clear that Mercedes are way ahead of the game in the PU department but it's not just engine. Their cars works in every circuit. A lesser chassis on a Mercedes is called a Williams. Red Bull would have given the Mercs more of a fight had their engine been a bit more up to snuff but the fact that Adrian Newey hung up his gloves means that chassis design is just not as much of a challenge as it used to be and that's a good thing. This year we've seen a little more capacity to follow close. Still not where it needs to be but this year's cars aren't undriveable while following which has allowed a lot more passing.

I wouldn't be surprised to know if we've seen more overtakes this year than in seasons past. The tires are good, the aero is almost right and the cars take a lot of driver behind them. We've heard a lot of drivers comment on the cars being easier to drive overall, what they talk about it from a physical punishment perspective. The cars have a lot less downforce so they just can't go flat out through some sections as they used to, and those high lateral Gs are the physical brutes.

IMO, Merc and Red Bull got their chassis right at their level of competition McLaren and Ferrari got it wrong. Merc had their car right last year, their chassis was very good. Their Achilles heel was the tires, they certainly got that sorted now though. William, Force India and Toro Rosso got their chassis right. Lotus, Sauber got theirs wrong.

I think McLaren is the under performer, Williams the over performer.

[What's Burning?]

According to OB it's all about the dominant Mercedes engine, it's easy to overlook that Red Bull are the only other team with a win. 3 of them actually.

[CookinFlat6]

According to OB bringing back the V8s would help avoid the crippling and boring non competition we had last year when Vettel won with races to spare

[Jabberwocky]

This year we've seen a little more capacity to follow close. Still not where it needs to be but this year's cars aren't undriveable while following which has allowed a lot more passing.

Interesting I suppose that is down to the fact that for the last 4 years they have not really had to cope with dirty airflow so had pushed the edge on clean airflow designs, maybe that could also of had an effect on Webbers last season.

[overboost]

According to OB bringing back the V8s would help avoid the crippling and boring non competition we had last year when Vettel won with races to spare

Reading comprehension is not your strong point is it cooking.

This is actually what I have said, " I don't think that the old V8's are the answer especially since a great deal of money has been spent on the new V6 turbos. Hopefully a compromise can be reached to improve the racing and keep Mercedes on track as well. "

Basically they should keep the V6 and allow updates throughout the season to allow for a true competitive environment. I was even hopeful that Mercedes would continue to race even if they had to compete on even terms. Although I see that Mercedes is already threatening to leave if they don't get their way.

As for the best chassis it is between Mercedes and Red Bull with the edge to Red Bull who managed to win three races even with a weak engine. Merc is very afraid of Red Bull and will be very aggressive in keeping the Renault engines underpowered.

[Hammer278]

Merc has the best chassis no question.

Not only the fact that they are so far ahead of their customer teams, if you look at how that car performs on circuits like Monaco where horsepower becomes almost negligible, they still toasted the competition. You'd have the be blind/ignorant to say RB has the best chassis just because of their recent history.

As for the best chassis it is between Mercedes and Red Bull with the edge to Red Bull who managed to win three races even with a weak engine. Merc is very afraid of Red Bull and will be very aggressive in keeping the Renault engines underpowered.

I couldnt believe I read this. RB managed to win three races despite a weak engine so this must mean they have the best chassis.

Canada - Merc MGU/brakes failure
Spa - LH KO'ed, Rosberg screwed himself from victory
Hungary - Wet race/SC timing screwed Rosberg

I don't see how RB's "chassis" helped them in those three races above.

[What's Burning?]

No coincidence both Adrian Newey and Sebastian Vettel turned tail out of Red Bull when they could no longer exploit the one secret to their success.

[Nin-Chin]

I think Merc has the best chassis. Now we can't know for sure as Red Bull has an inferior engine but in my opinion a small part of the Mercedes pace advantage is down to the car performance itself. Merc have also done a very good job developing the car over the season too.

They would have won all the races if it weren't for misfortune/collisions

Canada - MGU failure which meant the rear brakes were overheating. Merc had to manage their rear brakes (this is was made worse due to the fact that Mercedes, along with a few other teams, reduced the size of the rear brake ducts this season to save weight. Rosberg still finished 2nd despite being 160BHP down and having to manage his brakes at the same time.

Hungary - Safety car screwed Rosberg and Lewis could have won the race had he not started losing power in the final stint (fuel pressure problem) meaning he couldn't clear Alonso (Merc also made an error with putting mediums on for Lewis' final stop, turns out the tyre was worse than the soft).

Spa - Rosberg screwed Lewis over on the second lap effectively ending Hamilton's race.This also meant Nico had to change the front wing losing him a further 6 seconds in his pit stop. Then he flatspotted his tyres trying to pass Vettel causing Merc to have to commit to a three stop strategy to rescue his race.

[LH44]

I think people are underrating the Ferrari. I will put them third behind Mercedes and Redbull.

Singapore is normally where you see who has the best downforce package and the Ferrari was up there like they have been in most of the HD circuits.

There was an article on BBC a few weeks ago by Andrew Benson on which team is likely to challenge Mercedes next year and have an easier problem to solve and Ferrari was right up there. Apparently they undervalued the new engine's impact on performance and went down for downforce so the task ahead is a bit more defined once engine development opens up at the end of the season. This is why I'm surprised Alonso has almost jumped ship unless he wasn't convinced about Ferrari's engine development.

[CookinFlat6]

No matter how good Ferraris chassis is, until they stop buying off the shelf third party turbo units and out sourcing the Ers components, they will not be able to integrate and adapt as well as Honda and Merc. Having the entire production process as a vertical chain within the ownership group has never been more critical, especially when it comes to cost.

The ERS manageability and therefore the whole driveability of the car due to well designed power delivery etc is whats killing Kimi, and what Alonso knows will always be a limiter for that car. I.e, even if they get power up and use less fuel the car should still lag behind in the drivablilty stakes

Ironically, which IMO is the reason they decided to focus on aero downforce instead in the first place. The engine department were never in control

[LH44]

All lot of these units are outsourced anyway and Ferrari are no different. Even Mercs outsource their KERS and it would be interesting to see whether McLaren Honda stick with Zytek. The obvious issue with the engine is raw power deficit circa 80-90bhp and that's what Renault and Ferrari will be trying to gain next year.

[CookinFlat6]

Theres a big difference between having an R&D department/subsidiary that designs and builds using third party sourced elements like brembo brakes vs a firm that buys in third party designed and built elements

Merc designed, developed and supplied McLaren with the Kers, the ERS is entirely within the Merc group, and Honda similarly design and develop their own systems. Ferrari on the other hand use bits designed developed and supplied by Magnetto Marrelli

http://scarbsf1.com/blog1/2012/01/27/mercedes-amg-kers-development/

Designed and developed by Mercedes AMG, but other partners were involved; the unique battery cells were supplied via A123 and the MGU was partnered with Zytek. Although the power control electronics were solely a Mercedes AMG in house development.
Through the 2009 season both McLaren drivers had a safe and reliable KERS at each race.

http://www.cafespa.com/index.php?news=000066&title=2014-F1-V-6-Turbo-Engines

Regardless, the new V6 engines will get an additional 160bhp for 33.33 seconds from a stronger ERS (energy recovery system). ERS includes both kinetic energy (generated from braking that's transferred to the crank) and TERS (thermal energy recovery system with energy that's harvested from the turbo charger). This is accomplished by MGUH (Motor Generator Unit - Heat). The unit is attached to the turbo compressor and recovers energy otherwise wasted by the compressor. Magneti Marelli has developed a unique MGUH solution that converts the rotational forces between the turbine and compressor. All of this new technology is interesting to read about, but at the same time it seems the sport is getting overly complicated. Some media groups are even calling it chaotic. But, where there is change there is opportunity. Ferrari is working on developing V6 engines for customers to take advantage of a loophole that allows for more testing.

[LH44]

Zytek developed the powertrain for KERS which is the critical component and driver of the system. Control electronics is subsidiary. I mean McLaren supply the ECUs for the entire grid and it has little bearing on the pecking order.

It was known that Ferrari's dynamo was reading a power deficit to the numbers shared by close rivals way before the first test of the season. It had nothing to do with outsourcing but output and integration. They simply just got their priorities wrong. Renault are pretty much in the same boat and it can't be blamed on outside parties.