FORUMula1.com

[What's Burning?]

Well there you go, I missed it. My apologies.

We tend to be very well informed and look at the business of F1, not just the sport of F1. An educated forum member is our best customer and we do appreciate the effort that you're making to stay informed and even change your opinion after presented with more information.

[CookinFlat6]

This forum is well structured to allow those interested in reality to learn and contribute in threads about a particular aspect of F1 whilst providing lounges for those interested in the romantic side, as well as those who just like to shoot the breeze

win win, even the melons are no longer turning up just to moan about debates that carry on for more than 3 sentences

Who needs the judge or other sites, we got it all

especially the most modest members

[overboost]

It would seem the simplest solutions to engines would be a return to the 80s with multiple engine designs, keep the fuel limit of 100KG, but ditch the flow rate BS.

But on this subject, it's business to pass costs onto customer wherever possible, simple as that, I don't see how the FIA can dictate business practice to a company, ultimately if customers are unwilling to pay the asking price for Mercedes engines, they have alternative options. Frankly this whole engine stupidity flies in the face of cost cutting in F1... We need to cut costs in F1, I know lets ditch the V8 in favor of a hybrid V6 turbo system which cost bucket loads of $$$ to develop, which the engine makers need to recoup and here we are losing two teams from the grid before the end of the season with other teams in financial dire straights!

Well said moa. It is dire straights.

And on top of the damage being done financially to the small teams by these hyper expensive V6 hybrid turbo's is the damage being done due to the lack of competition and real racing on track. One team got it right and the rest can't fight back, not permitted to even try bizarre as it may seem.

The engine that Merc has will send their car around the track sometimes 2 seconds a lap faster than the best of the rest when 1/10 of a second used to be an eternity so excitement in 2014 is to be provided by having a double point race to choose between the lucky two combatants. Lucky as almost any driver in that car can do as well as cooking had pointed out

Anyone of the top 5 drivers in the WDC table could have done what Rosberg did in that Merc ...

Personally I would say that any of the top dozen could easily be a wdc in that car. This really devalues the wdc and frankly drives both fans and $ponsors away.

Merc wants this to be the new F1 ensconced in crap rules they won't allow to be altered. I hope though that they can be reasonable and see that a compromise on the flawed rules is good for all concerned.

[What's Burning?]

It would seem the simplest solutions to engines would be a return to the 80s with multiple engine designs, keep the fuel limit of 100KG, but ditch the flow rate BS.

But on this subject, it's business to pass costs onto customer wherever possible, simple as that, I don't see how the FIA can dictate business practice to a company, ultimately if customers are unwilling to pay the asking price for Mercedes engines, they have alternative options. Frankly this whole engine stupidity flies in the face of cost cutting in F1... We need to cut costs in F1, I know lets ditch the V8 in favor of a hybrid V6 turbo system which cost bucket loads of $$$ to develop, which the engine makers need to recoup and here we are losing two teams from the grid before the end of the season with other teams in financial dire straights!

Well said moa.

And on top of the damage being done financially to the small teams by these hyper expensive V6 hybrid turbo's is the damage being done due to the lack of competition and real racing on track. One team got it right and the rest can't fight back, not permitted to even try bizarre as it may seem.

The engine that Merc has will send their car around the track sometimes 2 seconds a lap faster than the best of the rest when 1/10 of a second used to be an eternity so excitement in 2014 is to be provided by having a double point race to choose between the lucky two combatants. Lucky as almost any driver in that car can do as well as cooking had pointed out

Anyone of the top 5 drivers in the WDC table could have done what Rosberg did in that Merc ...

Personally I would say that any of the top dozen could easily be a wdc in that car. This really devalues the wdc and frankly drives both fans and $ponsors away.

Merc wants this to be the new F1 ensconced in crap rules they won't allow to be altered. I hope they can be reasonable and see that a compromise on the flawed rules is good for all concerned.

Well said OB, if you lived in an alternate universe. Does it feel weird to cheer for Rosberg in one thread and the intense competition he's putting up, and complain about the lack of competition in another thread?

The most exciting season we've had since 2010. Your mileage may vary.

[overboost]

Well said OB, if you lived in an alternate universe. Does it feel weird to cheer for Rosberg in one thread and the intense competition he's putting up, and complain about the lack of competition in another thread?

The most exciting season we've had since 2010. Your mileage may vary.

This picture was taken in Yeongam Korea on Oct 21,2010. Five contenders from three teams still fighting it out for the title only two races to go! This season you might as well have taken the picture in pre-season testing. In fact Bernie didn't even bother this season.

2014 comparable in any way to 2010? You must be kidding!

[What's Burning?]

What happened in 2011? What happened in 2013? I know you remember 2013, it was just last year! How are you so fluffed by this year's results then?

[overboost]

What happened in 2011? What happened in 2013? I know you remember 2013, it was just last year! How are you so fluffed by this year's results then?

This years results are due to flawed rules which prevent any competition or fightback. It is a 'legislated' victory for Merc.

[racechick]

Overboost, if Mercedes' engine is allowing Mercedes to run two seconds ahead of the pack, why aren't FI, McLaren and Williams running two seconds ahead of the pack?

Why are the rules flawed? because Mercedes did a better job? if the rules are flawed, why didn't someone say so at their inception? Why was there unanimous agreement to flawed rules? You do know who spearheaded the move to the new rules? Renault.

Myown didn't day 2014 was the same as 2010, he said it was the most exciting since 2010.

Bernie says there is no place in F1 for these current engines and he wants to move back to the V8's. Niki Lauda says...... " If V8's come back , Mercedes will be gone". So I suspect will. Honda and it will be bye bye to any other manufacturer contemplating an F1 running under cutting edge and relevant technology. Where will your competition be then? Between Ferari and Renault, as they race around with increasingly outdated engines?
Ferarri have a veto ( yes, a real one! Not just the the right all teams have of voting against unanimity, but A real veto) I believe this veto can be exercised in areas of engine development, so why didn't Ferrari use it when theses rules were put in place? Was it because they thought these rules were good then? Before it became apparent how poor they were at cutting edge engine development?
Might Ferrari use their veto to change the engines for 2016? To bring back the old V8's that Bernie wants? That would leave Ferrari and Renault battling against each other and both will have just increased their chance of winning incredibly. What do you have to say about the state of competition that allows one team to wield power such as this?

[Hammer278]

Take it easy Roth, don't start frothing so quickly...I said you're not in a position, not not allowed. You're allowed to say whatever the hell you desire. But this argument is a bit silly, its like trying to prove something which you'll never know. To put this in a well known concept, you're saying there are no aliens out there and I'm saying you cannot say that since you wouldn't know. And you can't prove me wrong since I'm not stating something close ended, you are.

Merc COULD have made a suggestion or steered the debate away to another solution, we'll never know. In your original post you said they are simply saying no and not putting forward solutions, well you were. not. there. in order to make this claim.

Well we both missed it because, as we've been reliably informed, it happened at the weekend. So Merc put forward a plan and it ends up in the press. Just. Strangely, it's not like it was caked all over F1 sites, or even sandwiched in between race coverage. JA didn't mention it, nor the judge, nor F1fanatic, the official site or Joe Saward either. Nobody here has said anything about it. I eventually found a piece, via another random forum, on Autosport, which is mainly a subscription site so I don't go there. Maybe everybody is getting fed up of the bunfight.

http://m.autosport.com/news/report.php/ ... s-collapse" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Honestly, this isn't the most important topic for me right now so I haven't put the necessary effort to follow the thread myself. I'd definitely get more interested once Abu Double is done with.....and the season doesn't end up to be a total scam.

[Roth]

Well there you go, I missed it. My apologies.

We tend to be very well informed and look at the business of F1, not just the sport of F1. An educated forum member is our best customer and we do appreciate the effort that you're making to stay informed and even change your opinion after presented with more information.

The offer was still political, not genuine. They're stalling. They want to be seen to be reasonable, because being a-holes about it would be negative. It was the least they could get away with, their first line in the sand - you don't go straight in with your 'best' offer. Give them a little of what they are using as a sweetener in not passing on costs (the appearance of generosity from a team who more than most can afford to drop money, knowing it will almost certainly get rejected anyway, so what the heck), against a fraction of what others want in tokens (stingy, and the real crux of the argument).

Merc hold all the power and aren't being strongarmed by silly V8 talk. Let everyone else play out all their hands. They do this a bit more, time gets short, and Ferrari and RB are backed into corner and take whatever is being offered, or if everything gets rejected, Merc throw their hands up and say, well, we tried.

Now Merc have put a proposal down and the others think there's a chance, it will get interesting.

[What's Burning?]

And how is Ferrari, Red Bull and Bernie's demands of Mercedes anything but self serving and semi extortionist? Probably best we just let events unfold as they will.

[Roth]

They are much worse than Merc. Like I've said, Merc are technically doing nothing wrong.

[What's Burning?]

What happened in 2011? What happened in 2013? I know you remember 2013, it was just last year! How are you so fluffed by this year's results then?

This years results are due to flawed rules which prevent any competition or fightback. It is a 'legislated' victory for Merc.

And a victory I'm loving, and I'm going to love even more when they repeat it again in 2015! May the best Manufacturer win, don't feel obligated to make excuses for the poor performance Renault and Ferrari have given the fans, that's what's really driving down viewership. We need strong competitors like Audi to come in and compete with Mercedes, since it's obvious that the manufacturers already here did a piss poor job it.

[overboost]

Overboost, if Mercedes' engine is allowing Mercedes to run two seconds ahead of the pack, why aren't FI, McLaren and Williams running two seconds ahead of the pack?

Why are the rules flawed? because Mercedes did a better job? if the rules are flawed, why didn't someone say so at their inception? Why was there unanimous agreement to flawed rules? You do know who spearheaded the move to the new rules? Renault.

Myown didn't day 2014 was the same as 2010, he said it was the most exciting since 2010.

Bernie says there is no place in F1 for these current engines and he wants to move back to the V8's. Niki Lauda says...... " If V8's come back , Mercedes will be gone". So I suspect will. Honda and it will be bye bye to any other manufacturer contemplating an F1 running under cutting edge and relevant technology. Where will your competition be then? Between Ferari and Renault, as they race around with increasingly outdated engines?
Ferarri have a veto ( yes, a real one! Not just the the right all teams have of voting against unanimity, but A real veto) I believe this veto can be exercised in areas of engine development, so why didn't Ferrari use it when theses rules were put in place? Was it because they thought these rules were good then? Before it became apparent how poor they were at cutting edge engine development?
Might Ferrari use their veto to change the engines for 2016? To bring back the old V8's that Bernie wants? That would leave Ferrari and Renault battling against each other and both will have just increased their chance of winning incredibly. What do you have to say about the state of competition that allows one team to wield power such as this?

I think you know the answer to your question! The works Mercedes engine is at a higher state of tune than the customer engines. No mystery there!

Yes there is no doubt that Merc got it right and deserved to have success right away. The flaw which has dogged this season is preventing the other teams from overcoming their power deficits and rising to challenge Mercedes. The rules basically had created a two tier or a two formula series in 2014. The teams all had agreed to them but the flaws are now to obvious to ignore.

Mercedes imo is afraid of Red Bull in particular. They will do all they can to prevent Red Bull from achieving engine power parity because they know that on a level playing field they have no answer the influence of Adrian Newey. This means Merc will do whatever is necessary to keep the restrictions on engine power for the other teams in place even if it is seriously detrimental to the sport. They don't really have a sporting history in F1 and we all saw this when they made a mockery of the testing rules last season, so they will be capable of anything. I would also expect them to threaten to leave the sport altogether if they feel they won't get their way. It would be sad if they were to actually go but if it is for the good of F1 then so be it, F1 has done quite well without them since they left the last time in 1955.

I don't think that the old V8's are the answer especially since a great deal of money has been spent on the new V6 turbos. Hopefully a compromise can be reached to improve the racing and keep Mercedes on track as well.

[Hammer278]

What happened in 2011? What happened in 2013? I know you remember 2013, it was just last year! How are you so fluffed by this year's results then?

This years results are due to flawed rules which prevent any competition or fightback. It is a 'legislated' victory for Merc.

And a victory I'm loving, and I'm going to love even more when they repeat it again in 2015! May the best Manufacturer win, don't feel obligated to make excuses for the poor performance Renault and Ferrari have given the fans, that's what's really driving down viewership. We need strong competitors like Audi to come in and compete with Mercedes, since it's obvious that the manufacturers already here did a piss poor job it.

Yes, and I hope BMW comes back only in 2016 since I want Hamilton to win in 2015 as well.