FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[sagi58]

...Luckily F1 has Toto to protect it from itself, whats the point of everyone spending 20% more to end up at best the same distance behind Merc?...

...Wolff urged against any move to get rid of engine development restrictions completely as it could theoretically be pushed through for 2016.

"That would be irresponsible to the sport and disrespectful of the teams who went out," he said.

"As Mercedes this would be not something that we think is an intelligent way forward."

Empty threat, unlimited spending would kill every team bar Merc and McHonda and maybe RBR depending on whether they can expand the market for horrible tasting energy drinks to babies and children

Maybe you can answer what the point of spending anything at all to stay the same distance behind Mercedes is? Or why it's worth it?

Or, maybe you can explain how it's responsible to the sport to stunt development in other teams, so that Mercedes doesn't have any competition?

Or, even how it's respectful of the customer teams who don't have Mercedes engines to basically ensure that they can't be any more competitive than they are this year?

Also, would you be so kind as to point out exactly where any of the other teams is proposing "unlimited spending"?

Finally, I can't say that I blame Mercedes for rationalizing this edge financially, as that's the buzz word in any business.
In fact, it's a stroke of genius.

[overboost]

This is such a shame that Merc can't keep their word. F1 really needs a competitive spirit right now and this isn't happening when one team can control something as basic as engine development.

The Germans in Stuttgart seem to have great influence in F1 right now, first seen with a no penalty decision for the secret testing last season which helped net three wins for Merc, then a Germany based scandal which is bringing Eccelstone down and now the Merc enforced engine disparity.

I hope that the other teams can find a way to overcome the Merc engine domination in spite of Stuttgart's continued efforts to freeze them out. I think they can do it, F1 needs them to succeed.

[CookinFlat6]

Maybe you can answer what the point of spending anything at all to stay the same distance behind Mercedes is? Or why it's worth it?

Nope, I dont get it either, you need to ask Ferrari why they dont just force FIA and Merc to sell them competive Merc engines to compete with, aint rocket science

Or, maybe you can explain how it's responsible to the sport to stunt development in other teams, so that Mercedes doesn't have any competition?

Merc have lost of competition as the in season development at RBR showed us, RBR went from 2 laps at testing to the most laps over the season, leap frogging ferrari, so they developed all season, as far as engine, they can always buy the engines other competitive competitors use instead of waste money pretending they can build engines within a budget and time frame

Or, even how it's respectful of the customer teams who don't have Mercedes engines to basically ensure that they can't be any more competitive than they are this year?

Never heard of a business to give 2 sh!ts about a competitors customers well being, have you?, all customers could be buying competitive engines even cheaper from Merc, if they pointed this out to the FIA

Also, would you be so kind as to point out exactly where any of the other teams is proposing "unlimited spending"?

Work it out yourself - clue unlimited development has to be paid for

Finally, I can't say that I blame Mercedes for rationalizing this edge financially, as that's the buzz word in any business.
In fact, it's a stroke of genius.

So why bother with these questions?

[CookinFlat6]

Those who favour the unfreeze point to F1 as a pinnacle of innovation and technology in motorsport and say that this does not align with the concept of freezing technology. But it has been F1′s policy for some time in the interest of saving costs, along with restricting the number of engines. These were moves initially proposed by former Jaguar team principal Tony Purnell diubg the Mosley era of the FIA. The V8 engines were frozen after a certain point.
What is unsaid, is that the engine manufacturers have been free to develop flat out in parallel with their 2014 programmes to the extent that the units which will be homologated and used from February 2015 onwards will be quite different from the ones in action currently. Many of Mercedes’ rivals have learned about engine architecture, position of turbos, dimensions of exhaust pipes and such like and will have been working on their 2015 units accordingly. No doubt all will have made gains, but it was interesting to note that recently Red Bull’s Helmut Marko said that the “definitive” Renault engine would not be available to them until July 2015, indicating that they are running late.

As a newcomer to the sport, albeit one who represents its most powerful team, Mattiacci has been working hard to get an early ‘win’ on this unfreeze topic, looking to level the playing field a little and he thought he was making progress.
It is noticeable that the volume has been turned up on this debate since rumours began to emerge that Mercedes’ power unit upgrade for 2015 is a significant one, so it looks possible that next season could be as Mercedes-dominated as this year has been.
The new constructors’ champions have an advantage that they are not keen to lose in a hurry, but Mercedes boss Toto Wolff also points out that once rules are made, the sport should avoid changing them at the last minute as this incurs extra costs, which most of the customer teams in F1 are not in a position to pay.

[CookinFlat6]

Everyone could make more power, the issue is the 100 liter per hour flow. You can't just turn up the boost to make that power, you have to flow more fuel and that would defy the laws of physics. So it's turned into a self imposed cap. The same applies to the engine RPM. The max it 15k but again that would require a higher fuel flow. It's we've never seen the high RPMs in the graphics.

It's amazing to me that we're matching the performance of previous seasons (today's Q times was a track record) even with the imposed limitations. If the fuel flow was raised to say 120 liters per hour, we'd be seeing these cars trounce the times put up by the V10s.

Merc already need much less fuel and a lower fuel flow rate than the other 2 engines, even if they were 6% more economical now for the same power and had improved that by around half as much again for next year - so say they are now 9% better on fuel, they could swap that for 70% HP by increasing the boost without increasing the peak revs. very rough and dirty estimating there but what I mean is, from what we have seen of the Merc this year, the others would have to improve by a big amount to just match the Merc 2014 hybrid, so if Merc have improved and the others are already behind just like last year ........ ..

[youtube]IdcBENN4NSU[/youtube]

[Hammer278]

Its a damned if you do damned if you don't situation for anyone using non-Merc engines. When Merc came in and kept talking about 2014, 2014, 2014, I'm sure they weren't aiming for success in 1 solitary year....rather they probably meant the beginning of their modern era in F1.

[overboost]

Also, would you be so kind as to point out exactly where any of the other teams is proposing "unlimited spending"?

Work it out yourself - clue unlimited development has to be paid for

And who pays for the lost revenues from fewer fans and sponsors driven away by a sport without competition and dominated by one team? Even the fans in Germany aren't willing to pay to see it!

[Jabberwocky]

I think the thing to remember about the engine unfreeze is that it will follow the l laws of diminishing returns.

[racechick]

Also, would you be so kind as to point out exactly where any of the other teams is proposing "unlimited spending"?

Work it out yourself - clue unlimited development has to be paid for

And who pays for the lost revenues from fewer fans and sponsors driven away by a sport without competition and dominated by one team? Even the fans in Germany aren't willing to pay to see it!

That's not because of engines. The racing this year is far better than it was in the red Bull dominated , 'go slow' tyre years. That's because many races are in stupid places . And Germany, that's because Vettel wasn't doing well. I was at Germany, it was pretty good on race day, the atmosphere was good but the vast majority of support was for Vettel not Rosberg.

Back to the engines, changing the rules now would unleash a spending spree that F1 can ill afford. And Merc would still end up ahead with the engine.
And you know , the team that has only one less win than the second placed Merc driver , the ONLY team to win other than Merc has a Renault engine. There are three other teams out there with Merc engines, but it's a Renault engine that's taken the wins. Maybe Mercs superiority isn't all about the engine. Just a better all round job.

[CookinFlat6]

We have a natural selection process at work here in front of our eyes

The Merc teams are in business and getting results because they picked the right engine out of a choice
Next year will have Lotus, Williams, FI and Merc competing at the sharp end
The other half of the grid
- Ferrari + Sauber on Ferrari engines - Sauber doesnt have to choose the more expensive yet weaker Ferrari engine, neither do Ferrari
-RED Bull + STR on Renault engines - Red Bull came second using their Renault engines, those engines have been developed flat out with no restrictions for 2015, exactly the same chance as Merc. If the engine is weaker for the second time around, or according to the news - again behind schedule for the Feb freeze, well thats RBRs fault for picking the weaker engine maker, they could have picked Merc

So the teams smart enough to pick the best engine and stay with it have to help the teams who made the wrong choice the second time round?

Sauber are paying a lot more for their Ferrari engine than they would for a better Merc one - whos fault is that if they are still doing this?

[sagi58]

At the risk of sounding flippant, it would seem that what's being proposed by some
is that to make F1 feasible / successful is for everyone to run a Mercedes engine!

Maybe Mercedes should leave and create their own racing series!!

[CookinFlat6]

Just saying no one forces Ferrari to build their own engines when clearly they are not very good at it, So if their ONLY customer Sauber were to move to Merc, problem solved, competition from Sauber without extra cost - indeed saving a lot of money. As far as Ferrari they have the same option, buuild an engine within the rules or buy a better engine or stfu

[sagi58]

Ferrari may have had a run of bad luck; but, don't kid yourself, they aren't finished.
Being arrogant about the success of the team you're supporting isn't very sporting.
Insisting they are the only team that will ever be successful again is simply childish.

[CookinFlat6]

[sagi58]

Time to move these comments!