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[Denthúl]

You're not taking all the factors in the race into account. Lewis and Heikki were both at the front of the field for most of the race, whereas Kimi was fighting his way through traffic. He was held up by Barrichello for a while, then had to fight his way forward from there. Traffic is factor number one.

Factor number two is fuel. Hamilton, Kovalainen, Heidfeld and Kubica were on two-stop strategies. Raikkonen was on a one-stopper. He didn't pit until lap 28, which meant he had to carry a significant amount of additional fuel. Factor three was driver errors. Raikkonen threw his car off the track a couple of times, which may then have caused him problems, though these were all his own fault. Nevertheless, possibly a contribution.

Meanwhile, the McLarens had a race with no problems aside from the Safety Car costing Heikki a podium finish and Heikki hitting the pit-lane limiter costing him a place to Alonso.


Now, assuming circuit characteristics are going to play a major role, it's looking like Ferrari will again have the upper hand. So far, McLaren have demonstrated their best pace at Albert Park. So if we are to assume that Monaco, Singapore and Valencia go their way, there are a lot of other tracks - in particular the Tilke tracks at Istanbul Park and Shanghai - that will suit the Ferrari. Seeing as both cars' wheelbases have been altered in comparison to last year, the results of places such as Monza and Spa-Francorchamps are going to be much closer than they were last time, with neither team dominating the race, in my opinion.

[bud]

So now we only talking just Australia? and youre not taking into account that Ferrari did not have the Qualy pace as that of McLaren as shown by Masas 4th spot. Race pace yeah Kimi was one stopping but even that was taken out of context by the amount of safety cars in which helping his race and his pace.

but yeah lets just play the discount McLaren disrepectful game if you like they didnt do a good job and it was just a fluke what ever

[Denthúl]

So now we only talking just Australia? and youre not taking into account that Ferrari did not have the Qualy pace as that of McLaren as shown by Masas 4th spot. Race pace yeah Kimi was one stopping but even that was taken out of context by the amount of safety cars in which helping his race and his pace.

but yeah lets just play the discount McLaren disrepectful game if you like they didnt do a good job and it was just a fluke what ever

I'm not playing that game. I don't dislike nor disrespect McLaren. However, having an "outsider's" point of view helps me to realise that they really aren't doing very well at the moment.

People like you are what annoy me about any sport (or indeed, anything at all that involves competition) - you have to be right and it's impossible for your team to do poorly in something. Sure, they're a good team, but being a good team doesn't necessarily mean everything they do will always be best. Look at it this way: at every race where there haven't been bizarre incidents like Australia, the McLarens haven't run well in comparison to the Ferraris and are pretty much matched by the BMW Saubers. Now, from that, I think it's quite clear to see that they don't quite have the pace.

Unless you have blinkers on, that is...

On the subject of the safety cars, they may have helped him, yes, but had he not encountered engine problems in qualifying, Raikkonen would almost certainly have:

A) Out-qualified Massa
B) Been at least second in that race
C) Not have made the mistakes he did

Had his race not suffered from starting way down the grid, then his pace would have been far better and he would most likely have been challenging for the win, much like Lewis could have been if his set-up was better in Malaysia and he and Heikki hadn't been driving so slowly on the line during qualifying.

[8-ball]

Well it's good to see that haug is inspiring the Mclaren employees to get them fired up to beat Ferrari . I don't why Haug had mention this it helps no least of all Mclaren.

Ferrari has been the team to beat so far and Australia was a unexpected blip on the radar. Mcalren's problems are down to not having a fast enough car and Lewis not firing on all cylinders. However Spain was where Mclaren started to gain ground development wise so i expect some progress for Turkey. They're not going to win as the Ferrari design suits Turkey, i am more interested in how they go at monaco. If BMW can nick pole there i think that Mclaren have got serious problems

[bud]

I'm not playing that game. I don't dislike nor disrespect McLaren. However, having an "outsider's" point of view helps me to realise that they really aren't doing very well at the moment.

says the Honda bloke 1 win and 2 minor place podiums isnt doing well then wtf is Honda up to?

People like you are what annoy me about any sport (or indeed, anything at all that involves competition) - you have to be right and it's impossible for your team to do poorly in something. Sure, they're a good team, but being a good team doesn't necessarily mean everything they do will always be best.

have i said they are the best? i KNOW they do not have the pace of the Ferrari at the moment! where have i said other wise dude? my argument to you is that you lay the blame on driver experience setup wise for the reason of McLarens pace atm. yet i counter to say hey where was this lack of experience in Melbourne... why is Kubica shining over an experience F1 pilot... thought it was all about setup?
the car was setup perfect there yet you turn around and say it was lucky that Ferrari duck up. what ever mate

the reason for McLarens fortune is simple Ferrari have done a better job in the design room, now you can blame Lewis and Heikki all you like i sure hope that McLaren the TEAM can get some tweaks and get back ontop of the podium so you can eat your words about Lewis and Heikki

[Denthúl]

I'm not playing that game. I don't dislike nor disrespect McLaren. However, having an "outsider's" point of view helps me to realise that they really aren't doing very well at the moment.

says the Honda bloke 1 win and 2 minor place podiums isnt doing well then wtf is Honda up to?

See, here's the difference - I've acknowledged the fact that Honda aren't doing well at the moment and, unlike the situation at McLaren, it's not a driver-based issue but rather an issue with the way Honda have designed their car. And if it was down to set-up problems caused by a lack of experience, I would acknowledge that as well. I've been with teams when they're winning and when they're losing and I have learned to see where the problems lie. If you've been following the sport for a while (which I know you have) then you'll know that Jordan have had good and bad seasons.

People like you are what annoy me about any sport (or indeed, anything at all that involves competition) - you have to be right and it's impossible for your team to do poorly in something. Sure, they're a good team, but being a good team doesn't necessarily mean everything they do will always be best.

have i said they are the best? i KNOW they do not have the pace of the Ferrari at the moment! where have i said other wise dude? my argument to you is that you lay the blame on driver experience setup wise for the reason of McLarens pace atm. yet i counter to say hey where was this lack of experience in Melbourne... why is Kubica shining over an experience F1 pilot... thought it was all about setup?
the car was setup perfect there yet you turn around and say it was lucky that Ferrari duck up. what ever mate

the reason for McLarens fortune is simple Ferrari have done a better job in the design room, now you can blame Lewis and Heikki all you like i sure hope that McLaren the TEAM can get some tweaks and get back ontop of the podium so you can eat your words about Lewis and Heikki

WTF?

I want them to get back on the podium and be winning races.

Kubica is shining over Heidfeld because he has speed and talent, but I'm willing to bet that Kubica and Heidfeld, like most drivers, will share their set-up information so that they can both find what works for them and their cars. Experience isn't key to being fast. You get that naturally. However, experience is necessary for setting up and developing cars, which is why I feel that teams with one youthful, fast driver with plenty of raw pace and one experienced driver who knows his stuff is the best combination. Two experienced drivers who aren't as fast as they used to be will mean your car is good but it won't finish as highly as they can. On the flip-side, two young, fast but inexperienced drivers will mean that if your car is set-up properly then they'll be able to score plenty of points with it, but getting that set-up right in the first place will be more difficult because they haven't quite built up the necessary knowledge and experience of adjusting the cars perfectly for each different circuit.

Once again, I shall point out that Williams, Toro Rosso and McLaren seem to be struggling with development and with set-up at the moment whilst BMW Sauber, Force India and even Honda are getting their set-up right a lot more often and have made some big steps. Renault have probably made the biggest through the season, Force India one of the biggest between 2007 and 2008 (remember, their car is basically just last year's Spyker with a few changes) and BMW Sauber the biggest. And what do these teams have in common? Experience ( Heidfeld, Fisichella, Barrichello/Button, Alonso) and also speed (Kubica, Sutil when he's actually in the race, Button, Alonso and Piquet, again when he's actually in the race and not having technical issues).

Anyway, if Ferrari hadn't had problems and their drivers hadn't made mistakes, they'd have been challenging McLaren. Their practice-session pace showed that they were capable of that.

The McLaren car has the potential to challenge the Ferrari, but it needs to be set-up properly for races to do so. If you swapped the drivers around in the cars, you'd probably find that Raikkonen and Massa would still have the edge even in the McLaren cars. Sure, it's got a couple of things to be worked on, but that doesn't account completely for the lack of pace. Furthermore, if driver experience didn't matter, shouldn't the engineers, who have been designing, building and improving cars for McLaren for several years, have worked around those problems by now?

[racechick]

I'm not playing that game. I don't dislike nor disrespect McLaren. However, having an "outsider's" point of view helps me to realise that they really aren't doing very well at the moment.

says the Honda bloke 1 win and 2 minor place podiums isnt doing well then wtf is Honda up to?

See, here's the difference - I've acknowledged the fact that Honda aren't doing well at the moment and, unlike the situation at McLaren, it's not a driver-based issue but rather an issue with the way Honda have designed their car. And if it was down to set-up problems caused by a lack of experience, I would acknowledge that as well. I've been with teams when they're winning and when they're losing and I have learned to see where the problems lie. If you've been following the sport for a while (which I know you have) then you'll know that Jordan have had good and bad seasons.

People like you are what annoy me about any sport (or indeed, anything at all that involves competition) - you have to be right and it's impossible for your team to do poorly in something. Sure, they're a good team, but being a good team doesn't necessarily mean everything they do will always be best.

have i said they are the best? i KNOW they do not have the pace of the Ferrari at the moment! where have i said other wise dude? my argument to you is that you lay the blame on driver experience setup wise for the reason of McLarens pace atm. yet i counter to say hey where was this lack of experience in Melbourne... why is Kubica shining over an experience F1 pilot... thought it was all about setup?
the car was setup perfect there yet you turn around and say it was lucky that Ferrari duck up. what ever mate

the reason for McLarens fortune is simple Ferrari have done a better job in the design room, now you can blame Lewis and Heikki all you like i sure hope that McLaren the TEAM can get some tweaks and get back ontop of the podium so you can eat your words about Lewis and Heikki

WTF?

I want them to get back on the podium and be winning races.

Kubica is shining over Heidfeld because he has speed and talent, but I'm willing to bet that Kubica and Heidfeld, like most drivers, will share their set-up information so that they can both find what works for them and their cars. Experience isn't key to being fast. You get that naturally. However, experience is necessary for setting up and developing cars, which is why I feel that teams with one youthful, fast driver with plenty of raw pace and one experienced driver who knows his stuff is the best combination. Two experienced drivers who aren't as fast as they used to be will mean your car is good but it won't finish as highly as they can. On the flip-side, two young, fast but inexperienced drivers will mean that if your car is set-up properly then they'll be able to score plenty of points with it, but getting that set-up right in the first place will be more difficult because they haven't quite built up the necessary knowledge and experience of adjusting the cars perfectly for each different circuit.

Once again, I shall point out that Williams, Toro Rosso and McLaren seem to be struggling with development and with set-up at the moment whilst BMW Sauber, Force India and even Honda are getting their set-up right a lot more often and have made some big steps. Renault have probably made the biggest through the season, Force India one of the biggest between 2007 and 2008 (remember, their car is basically just last year's Spyker with a few changes) and BMW Sauber the biggest. And what do these teams have in common? Experience ( Heidfeld, Fisichella, Barrichello/Button, Alonso) and also speed (Kubica, Sutil when he's actually in the race, Button, Alonso and Piquet, again when he's actually in the race and not having technical issues).

Anyway, if Ferrari hadn't had problems and their drivers hadn't made mistakes, they'd have been challenging McLaren. Their practice-session pace showed that they were capable of that.

The McLaren car has the potential to challenge the Ferrari, but it needs to be set-up properly for races to do so. If you swapped the drivers around in the cars, you'd probably find that Raikkonen and Massa would still have the edge even in the McLaren cars. Sure, it's got a couple of things to be worked on, but that doesn't account completely for the lack of pace. Furthermore, if driver experience didn't matter, shouldn't the engineers, who have been designing, building and improving cars for McLaren for several years, have worked around those problems by now?

There's nothing wrong with the drivers at McLaren. McLaren have one of the best driveras and one very close to that. At present the McLaren is running on a knife edge- it is not an easy car to set -up where as the Ferrari is more amenable. The drivers are both young and lack F1 experience but that is not the only reason McLaren have problems at the moment. They are .3 seconds behind with a car that is very twitchy. Note the different ways the two cars performed around the long turn 3 in Spain. The Ferrari was easy to get around, the McLaren needed hustling. At present the Ferrari is faster and easier to set up......so lay off the drivers. And it might not stay this way!

[Denthúl]

There's nothing wrong with the drivers at McLaren. McLaren have one of the best driveras and one very close to that. At present the McLaren is running on a knife edge- it is not an easy car to set -up where as the Ferrari is more amenable. The drivers are both young and lack F1 experience but that is not the only reason McLaren have problems at the moment. They are .3 seconds behind with a car that is very twitchy. Note the different ways the two cars performed around the long turn 3 in Spain. The Ferrari was easy to get around, the McLaren needed hustling. At present the Ferrari is faster and easier to set up......so lay off the drivers. And it might not stay this way!

The point is, a more experienced driver would most likely be able to set the car up well-enough even if it is difficult, and would probably be able to make up enough time to challenge the Ferraris in a slightly more strategic game - they would be able to stay close enough to leap-frog them on the pit-stops.

I'm not saying that the drivers are bad - I respect that they're very, very talented and very fast. But they still lack the experience necessary to be able to explore all areas of the possible set-ups and it is that that is making things harder for them.

[racechick]

There's nothing wrong with the drivers at McLaren. McLaren have one of the best driveras and one very close to that. At present the McLaren is running on a knife edge- it is not an easy car to set -up where as the Ferrari is more amenable. The drivers are both young and lack F1 experience but that is not the only reason McLaren have problems at the moment. They are .3 seconds behind with a car that is very twitchy. Note the different ways the two cars performed around the long turn 3 in Spain. The Ferrari was easy to get around, the McLaren needed hustling. At present the Ferrari is faster and easier to set up......so lay off the drivers. And it might not stay this way!

The point is, a more experienced driver would most likely be able to set the car up well-enough even if it is difficult, and would probably be able to make up enough time to challenge the Ferraris in a slightly more strategic game - they would be able to stay close enough to leap-frog them on the pit-stops.

I'm not saying that the drivers are bad - I respect that they're very, very talented and very fast. But they still lack the experience necessary to be able to explore all areas of the possible set-ups and it is that that is making things harder for them.

A more experienced driver MAY be able to set the car up better but he would not be able to drive it fast enough. Lewis will gain experience, A more experienced driver will not gain talent.

[McLaren Fan]

Eh, we all know Hamilton and Kovalainen have the talent, but that's not the point. They lack experience at this moment in time and there is a chance that some of that, although a hell of a long way from all of it, is one reason for McLaren not doing quite as well as they would like.

[racechick]

Eh, we all know Hamilton and Kovalainen have the talent, but that's not the point. They lack experience at this moment in time and there is a chance that some of that, although a hell of a long way from all of it, is one reason for McLaren not doing quite as well as they would like.

Did I say different???????????????
Though i doubt many could do a better job

[bud]

denthul youre confusing car development with car setup and using this as evidence as to why McLaren arent on the same pace as Ferrari.

look at last year for example once Alonso was having his dummy spit half way through the season he blocked Lewis from seeing his data and setup config. now Lewis still won races after that point on his own setup did he not? and would have been world champ if not for driving errors.
as for Heikki he has tested F1 cars for a while now his first test was in 2003


McLarens answers are simply in the development race, and at this point of the season Ferrari are winning and have a nice lead!

[Denthúl]

Eh, we all know Hamilton and Kovalainen have the talent, but that's not the point. They lack experience at this moment in time and there is a chance that some of that, although a hell of a long way from all of it, is one reason for McLaren not doing quite as well as they would like.

And I didn't say that that was all of it. But you can't deny that it's making it somewhat more difficult for them to get around the problem, can you? They'll do it, but it will take significantly longer.

Did I say different???????????????
Though i doubt many could do a better job

There are a few. I think that Raikkonen, Alonso and Fisichella paired with either Hamilton or Kovalainen would be more effective all-round (disregarding Alonso's character issues). It will come to them, but it's still not going to be there. Williams seem to be having similar problems and they are in a similar situation.

denthul youre confusing car development with car setup and using this as evidence as to why McLaren arent on the same pace as Ferrari.

look at last year for example once Alonso was having his dummy spit half way through the season he blocked Lewis from seeing his data and setup config. now Lewis still won races after that point on his own setup did he not? and would have been world champ if not for driving errors.
as for Heikki he has tested F1 cars for a while now his first test was in 2003


McLarens answers are simply in the development race, and at this point of the season Ferrari are winning and have a nice lead!

I think that you're failing to read everything here. I've pointed out several times that both are a key factor. Further to the point, we have evidence that both are having an impact on their pace. Furthermore, whilst Heikki may have had some tests in Formula 1 since 2003, his testing role, where he would have started to gain experience properly in car set-up, was 2006. Seeing as he only started racing in 2007, he still only had experience of setting up the car in test conditions which, as we all know, are quite different to setting up the car in qualifying and race conditions.

[bud]

but you bypassed the explanation on Hamiltons setup work last year as i said when Alonso blocked any data transfer in the garage. Hamilton still had the pace last year.

[texasmr2]

Hamilton still had the pace last year.

Yep and that's what really pissed off and dumbfounded Alonso, it was awesome!!