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[Roth]

Back to Vettel. I think his performances this year beg that we reasses Webber and certainly Ricciardo, in the latters case I believe we already have.

The Webber position is a tricky one. His talent was like a moving target at RB. We like to think of him as an above average journeyman, it helps in pulling Vettel down, but he put in some excellent drives early on. As the car got away from him towards Vettel he clearly suffered. By the end both he and the team just seemed to be fulfilling a contractual obligation, and it was a bumpy ride to that point. His age and motivation and size got the better of him, I think, and if he'd stayed on would not be doing anything like Ricciardo is. It would have been more like the to and fro of '10.

Ricciardo has a lot of nouse which separates him more than skill. These regs might just suit him better than the previous ones where he was solid rather than spectacular. I'd hate for him to be built up like Vettel, have the regs change, and it all come crashing down. That nouse and racecraft though is like Alonso, it stays with him, something which Vettel lacks enough for it to be a defining trait. So you'd have to say he's the real deal, of all the pretenders like Mag or Bottas.

It would be interesting if Vettel left at the end of next year and they promoted Kvyat, rather than bringing in a big name. Both seeing Vettel leaving home and replace him a similar cog. Vettel's stock is in his own hands now, not Newey's.

[Jabberwocky]

Just read there is a rumour that he is off to Mclaren next year

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[CookinFlat6]

Correct me if I'm wrong Cookin'. Your stat is that Hammy is on the list you've put him on because he has won a WDC in a non WCC car?

Correct Lemon, you are a quick study

Sagi wasnt sure how anyone could say Lewis is a great driver when it was obvious to her that, like Seb he was enjoying ""unprecedented success"" this year because he finally has a 2 sec car. She wasnt sure how anyone could seperate a great driver from a great car. Roth was on hand to confirm her suspicions that Lewis, like Seb was being called great because of his car and that in F1 the driver in the best car pretty much allways wins.

At this point I decided to gently introduce them to the fact that drivers 'always' won when the car was so much better that the team also won the WCC no matter what the teammate was or how many dnfs or other blahdeblahexcuseblahdeblahexcusesb!tchingetc . i.e in F1 when the car is better its good enough so that almost any driver and his teammate can gather enough points to win the WCC.

A driver in a car that is not the best however will not be able to overcome the 2 guys in the best car even if his teamate is as good as he is. So in the last 15 years only 1 driver has won when his car wasnt good enough to sweep the WCC also (remember I alread explained it doesnt really matter about the teamate blahdebalhdeb!tchblah)

why? because history tells us that its about 13% of times - very rarely that any driver is able to overcome the simple physics of the best car been able to grab the WCC unless you have Alonso and Lewis taking points off each other in the second or third best car like in 2007 before ferrari were given the WCC by FIA to stop them leaving - Kimi was gifted the win in the best car and 2 drivers in the second or third best car would have grabbed the WCC - (only ferrari could do it the wrong way round lol) so theres a good reason it happens so rarely

So the 4 guys who have won in a car that wasnt good enough that any 2 drivers could have snatched the WCC are MS, Kimi, Prost and Lewis - these chaps have 14 WDCS between them - thats 4.5 WDCS each on average

I rest my case

[Roth]

Why doesn't it matter about the teammate? Have you looked at those seasons in any depth or just skimmed over the standings?

[CookinFlat6]

Just read there is a rumour that he is off to Mclaren next year

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Its really strange, but now we are getting ready to bid an emotional and tearful byebye to jenson and hope he does well in his new career reunited with his dear loyal TP- (the one who saw the greatness in him when no other TP did) it feels such a shame that jenson has to leave because no one around Mclaren has the vision of his older gentleman friend, who was also taken out at dawn and de-careerised by Ron

Yeah, its all a bit sad that people are not willing to give poor Jenson a chance to proove his worth

and in other news, the residents of Woking have all been acting strange recently - all of them

[CookinFlat6]

Why doesn't it matter about the teammate? Have you looked at those seasons in any depth or just skimmed over the standings?

if the teamamte was a big factor in a car thats 2 secs faster than the rest the stat wouldnt be so low, now would it roth or are you saying in 87% of cases it was allways one thing or another for ALL the teammates like the blahdebalhetcetc with kovi, nah surely even you woudlnt be that ...

[sagi58]

It's this need to slip into every topic how great Hamilton is or how poor his opponents are, which in itself is counterintuitive. We were just making a general point. There was no need to go off on a Lew is brill tangent, and lump him in with a bunch of heroes.

I'm a bit to blame by going into the WCC standings and how it's not black and white, but I was trying to flesh out the original point of the car/driver mix. The standings table doesn't tell the whole story of the season.

Actually, you helped me put that into perspective, so thank you!

I understand that there isn't a clear-cut formula for a winning
season and the stats (which I detest) are ineffectual, at best,
to retell the season as it developed.

And, until now, I thought it was an "even" split between the
car, the driver and the team; but, that seems to change from
track to track.

Again, grazie!!

[Roth]

Why doesn't it matter about the teammate? Have you looked at those seasons in any depth or just skimmed over the standings?

if the teamamte was a big factor in a car thats 2 secs faster than the rest the stat wouldnt be so low, now would it roth or are you saying in 87% of cases it was allways one thing or another for ALL the teammates like the blahdebalhetcetc with kovi, nah surely even you woudlnt be that ...

I'll take that as a no.

[Roth]

It's this need to slip into every topic how great Hamilton is or how poor his opponents are, which in itself is counterintuitive. We were just making a general point. There was no need to go off on a Lew is brill tangent, and lump him in with a bunch of heroes.

I'm a bit to blame by going into the WCC standings and how it's not black and white, but I was trying to flesh out the original point of the car/driver mix. The standings table doesn't tell the whole story of the season.

Actually, you helped me put that into perspective, so thank you!

I understand that there isn't a clear-cut formula for a winning
season and the stats (which I detest) are ineffectual, at best,
to retell the season as it developed.

And, until now, I thought it was an "even" split between the
car, the driver and the team; but, that seems to change from
track to track.

Again, grazie!!

That's OK.

With limited more resiliant engines nowadays it there's probably a fairer reflection of points to talent. In the original turbo era, basically the '80s, DNFs and retirements played a huge part. In every sense they were much more fragile cars. Accidents and deaths too came into play more because of that.

Tracks do play a part too, both in driver and car. Sometimes they come alive or they fall flat. Vettel's and RB's domination flattened the curve and I don't think all these Tilke drome help, but generally power cars like the open circuits like Monza, downforce cars like twisty tracks like Hungary.

[sagi58]

...Tracks do play a part too, both in driver and car. Sometimes they come alive or they fall flat. Vettel's and RB's domination flattened the curve and I don't think all these Tilke drome help, but generally power cars like the open circuits like Monza, downforce cars like twisty tracks like Hungary.

So... Since this is the Vettel thread, might Vettel/Ricciardo/Red Bull surprise us in Monza? Or Hungary?

[Roth]

No for Monza (we already had Hungary), because the Renault engine has been letting them down all season. It's just not up with the Merc engine. Strap a Merc engine into the RB and it would give the Mercs work team a run for it's money. Newey has done his job yet again, designing a very good downforce car, and DR is liking it enough to win in Hungary (with some luck). But Monza is a power circuit which is something RB don't have. So Williams should do well because they have a Merc engine in a good package.

[sagi58]

No for Monza (we already had Hungary)...

Ooops... I meant the Beglian GP, which is differs from Monza's, right?

[sagi58]

...But Monza is a power circuit which is something RB don't have. So Williams should do well because they have a Merc engine in a good package.

Got it!! Thanks, again!

((p.s. not that it's going to change how I make my picks in the pool!! ))

[Roth]

Belgium is a bit of both, two very long fast bits sandwiching an undulating twisty section. You'd probably favour the faster car to use it's advantage and keep the ones setup for the twisty section behind them for lack of overtaking. It's a comprimise track. Each team and driver will have their own take on it depending on where they think they will gain and lose time. Weather's funny there too, it can be dry in one section and raining in another. There's a reason why it's a favourite with drivers and fans. Kimi loves it.

[racechick]

And, until now, I thought it was an "even" split between the
car, the driver and the team; but, that seems to change from
track to track.

I'd say there's a massive difference between the effect of an outstanding car and the effect of an outstanding driver.
Max Chilton would likely win a race in the current Merc but Lewis would not win one in the Marussia.
What he would do with the car is get it further up the grid in quali and races than it has any right to be. So would Alonso. But win a race, no.
Where the outstanding driver makes a difference is in marginal situations, when several cars are at a similar level, then your outstanding driver can get the car ahead.

I think it's part if the reason why Rosberg is up with Lewis on points this season( car failures being the other part of the reason) the Merc is so far ahead that unless there is an 'incident ' with the Mercs, other very good drivers( Ric, Alonso) can't overcome the car defecit and get In between the Merc boys.