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[CookinFlat6]

What percentage of championships have gone to the double?

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i would answer but you didnt ask nicely enough so I am going to ignore the question and tell my mum in private

[CookinFlat6]

What percentage of championships have gone to the double?

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Nah I cant bring myself to run away from backing up my claims, wouldnt be able to sleep at night

Since 1984 (lets say the modern era) there have been 30 years of F1

so 30 potential double WDC/WCC combos

in that time there have been a grand total of 4 WDCs who did not have the best car, i.e not in the WCC winning team
MS, Mika, Prost and Lewis

this is 4/30 = 13%

from 1959 its 9 out of 45 = 20%

So its not 2% (which is why I said 'still doesnt excuse why Lewis is one of the 2% or whatever of drivers to win a WDC in a team that didnt win the WC') yet the point remains its rare enough to be meaningful no matter how much the haterz choke on it

Lewis is the only guy on the grid to have won in not the best car - FACT


Also, out of the 4 who have pulled off this feat in the modern era, apart from Lewis they are all multiple champions - pointing to the conclusion that this feat cannot be pulled off by 1 season wonders, only by the very best drivers of their generation, we would therefore expect Lewis to also be the best of this generation and almost certain to win multiple WDCs and in different teams to boot.

This distinction allows us to see the following in the stats - Seb or Button can only win in a 2 sec car, Alonso doesnt need a 2 sec car but can only win in the best car, Lewis doesnt even need the best car

[Roth]

I was surprised that 2007 was Ferrari's year. It's the Hamilton/Alonso debacle that overshadows what was a double for Ferrari, but up until the last 3 races McLaren had both titles in the bag until they bottled it. So coming out on top doesn't always mean you had the absolute best car especially when it ends up so close. That period 05-08 was a very exciting time, two very even teams and drivers duking it out (apart from Kovi, he was just rubbish). McLaren 05 was too unreliable but had the pace on Renault, 06 there was nothing in it. At no point would you say it was the car's strength alone that won the driver's title.

But if you want to throw in a statistic to Hollywoodise Hamilton, knock yourself out.

[Jabberwocky]

What percentage of championships have gone to the double?

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Nah I cant bring myself to run away from backing up my claims, wouldnt be able to sleep at night

Since 1984 (lets say the modern era) there have been 30 years of F1

so 30 potential double WDC/WCC combos

in that time there have been a grand total of 4 WDCs who did not have the best car, i.e not in the WCC winning team
MS, Mika, Prost and Lewis

this is 4/30 = 13%

from 1959 its 9 out of 45 = 20%

So its not 2% (which is why I said 'still doesnt excuse why Lewis is one of the 2% or whatever of drivers to win a WDC in a team that didnt win the WC') yet the point remains its rare enough to be meaningful no matter how much the haterz choke on it

Lewis is the only guy on the grid to have won in not the best car - FACT


Also, out of the 4 who have pulled off this feat in the modern era, apart from Lewis they are all multiple champions - pointing to the conclusion that this feat cannot be pulled off by 1 season wonders, only by the very best drivers of their generation, we would therefore expect Lewis to also be the best of this generation and almost certain to win multiple WDCs and in different teams to boot.

This distinction allows us to see the following in the stats - Seb or Button can only win in a 2 sec car, Alonso doesnt need a 2 sec car but can only win in the best car, Lewis doesnt even need the best car

I was not questioning what you wrote. Just wondering about the double tie up. I think it was a topic a while ago (maybe when Rubens left) about who had the most championship winning car and not won a championship.

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[CookinFlat6]

I was surprised that 2007 was Ferrari's year. It's the Hamilton/Alonso debacle that overshadows what was a double for Ferrari, but up until the last 3 races McLaren had both titles in the bag until they bottled it. So coming out on top doesn't always mean you had the absolute best car especially when it ends up so close. That period 05-08 was a very exciting time, two very even teams and drivers duking it out (apart from Kovi, he was just rubbish). McLaren 05 was too unreliable but had the pace on Renault, 06 there was nothing in it. At no point would you say it was the car's strength alone that won the driver's title.

But if you want to throw in a statistic to Hollywoodise Hamilton, knock yourself out.

You are missing the point in your eagerness to do some psychoanalysis on the stats. 4 drivers in the last 30 years have achieved something. And you are saying its random luck? Or are you saying that only in Lewis' case it can be explained by some blah de blah? Or are you saying 4 in 30 doesnt imply that all 4 had blah de blah excuses?
I bet you are not saying that whatever happened that year hasnt happened to other drivers who didnt achieve this feat?

Lets start with something easy roth - MS, Mika, Prost, Lewis - does Lewis stick out like a sore thumb? Is it a complete shocker that a set of circumstances that these multiple WDC winners faced also happened to Lewis? Or where they all mentally stable apart from you know who?

maybe all the above

[Roth]

Mika was a bit of a tanker, the others not so much. I'm just saying the final constructor standings don't tell the whole story, especially in very close seasons. It's a cute stat but a rather trivial one. Let Hamilton's driving speak for itself, it doesn't need statistical curiousities to boost it. Vettel is the stat king, he sh*its all over Hamilton in that regard, but it doesn't mean much.

[What's Burning?]

Mika was a bit of a tanker, the others not so much. I'm just saying the final constructor standings don't tell the whole story, especially in very close seasons. It's a cute stat but a rather trivial one. Let Hamilton's driving speak for itself, it doesn't need statistical curiousities to boost it. Vettel is the stat king, he sh*its all over Hamilton in that regard, but it doesn't mean much.

He's showing how much those stats mean this year, poor guy. I do support him however long it takes him to come to grips with a car that his junior team teammate has had a comfortable handle on since the beginning of the season. Go Vettel!

[CookinFlat6]

Mika was a bit of a tanker, the others not so much. I'm just saying the final constructor standings don't tell the whole story, especially in very close seasons. It's a cute stat but a rather trivial one. Let Hamilton's driving speak for itself, it doesn't need statistical curiousities to boost it. Vettel is the stat king, he sh*its all over Hamilton in that regard, but it doesn't mean much.

roth roth roth, mate, there you go again with changing focus when you get overwhelmed, YOU started on the stats, I replied in kind with stats you dont like, so its suddenly 'let the driving speak, forget stats, Seb is stat king, etc etc'

When did Hamilton win in a dog of a car? If Vettel wins a race this season, and it's not beyond the realms of possibility, he will also have won in every full season he's competed in. If you're given a good car from the get-go it's easier to win. Hamilton's only an anomoly because he's had the chance. And it's only one barometer for success.

Mercs apart everybody needs luck this season to win. RB never had it so good from the start of a season as this. So winning isn't an issue in Vettel's case, beating his teammate is, and he's failing miserably at that. As good as he is Hamilton wouldn't be taking it to healthy Mercs if he was in a RB either. At best he'd be doing what Ricciardo is, picking up the pieces.

Where sagi falls down is perhaps not recognising driver input making the difference when things are tighter, but the best car almost always delivers the champion, so she's right there. The weight you give to the car/driver ratio is more biased towards if you like a team or driver. That's why this place exists.

By the way Seb is NOT the stat king - his awol supporters are the stats ladies in waiting, MS has more claim cos he did it first in this era, not Seb. Anyways for stats we are normally interested in meaningful ones. How does he sh!t on Lewis when Lewis has the legendary stats and deeds??? eg beat 2 reigning WDCs in same car, lapped a WDC in same car, won every season, 1 point off winning as a ROOKIE, first guy to get a pit pass for his fricken dog

So a guy has a 2 sec car and wins by 20 secs 5x or 15x

[Roth]

Mika was a bit of a tanker, the others not so much. I'm just saying the final constructor standings don't tell the whole story, especially in very close seasons. It's a cute stat but a rather trivial one. Let Hamilton's driving speak for itself, it doesn't need statistical curiousities to boost it. Vettel is the stat king, he sh*its all over Hamilton in that regard, but it doesn't mean much.

roth roth roth, mate, there you go again with changing focus when you get overwhelmed, YOU started on the stats, I replied in kind with stats you dont like, so its suddenly 'let the driving speak, forget stats, Seb is stat king, etc etc'

When did Hamilton win in a dog of a car? If Vettel wins a race this season, and it's not beyond the realms of possibility, he will also have won in every full season he's competed in. If you're given a good car from the get-go it's easier to win. Hamilton's only an anomoly because he's had the chance. And it's only one barometer for success.

Mercs apart everybody needs luck this season to win. RB never had it so good from the start of a season as this. So winning isn't an issue in Vettel's case, beating his teammate is, and he's failing miserably at that. As good as he is Hamilton wouldn't be taking it to healthy Mercs if he was in a RB either. At best he'd be doing what Ricciardo is, picking up the pieces.

Where sagi falls down is perhaps not recognising driver input making the difference when things are tighter, but the best car almost always delivers the champion, so she's right there. The weight you give to the car/driver ratio is more biased towards if you like a team or driver. That's why this place exists.

By the way Seb is NOT the stat king - his awol supporters are the stats ladies in waiting, MS has more claim cos he did it first in this era, not Seb. Anyways for stats we are normally interested in meaningful ones.

So a guy has a 2 sec car and wins by 20 secs 5x or 15x

All stats are as meaningful as you want them to be. And I didn't even bring stats into it. I just made a general observation.You're the one that went and got his calculator out.

And I liked your stat just fine. In the scheme of things I just didn't think it held much ballast. So Hamilton is the only person on the grid to be champ in a non WCC team... I'm over the moon. I just don't see the relevance of bringing it up. Even if he won the title in a Caterham it wouldn't hold any relevance.

Hamilton was being used as a modern benchmark for Vettel's struggles and all of a sudden it's all about Hamilton and how great he is. We could have used Alonso at Renault, but then we wouldn't have been talking about Hamilton, but it's not really about Hamilton, it's about Vettel. We got off track because people love to big Hamilton up at every opportunity.

So I think it's going to be a very interesting 18 months for Vettel, more defining than the previous five years. RB are a cut-throat team with plenty of glamour waiting in the wings, and they can only go on supporting him for so long if he keeps getting beaten by DR.

[What's Burning?]

So we give him a free pass for the first half of the season you think? Struggling with a 2nd tier car so it's to be expected? I guess we can come to some consensus about it, what puzzles me is that there are no charges of mental weakness, nor dings to his constitution for dramatically losing out against his junior teammate. I look forward to the next 18 months then.

[Roth]

No free passes. This is his repuation on the line. I don't honestly see him improving in leaps and bounds or greatly at all. He's come up against the ceiling of his talent. He doesn't really have an excuse at this point. Maybe he had reasons at the start of the season, he had a lot of car troubles, was slower to adapt, but no more. A vast improvement would have put the first half into stark relief, but RB are still up at the pointy end most weekends, so it's clearly Vettel's issue.

He's admitted he's struggling, he's not glossing over his form, and I think outwardly he's handling it well. It must weigh on him, but not necessarily to the detrement of his basic ability that it would be the sole cause, just his own self opinion and doubt.

[CookinFlat6]

So Hamilton is the only person on the grid to be champ in a non WCC team... I'm over the moon. I just don't see the relevance of bringing it up. Even if he won the title in a Caterham it wouldn't hold any relevance.

Nice try

This is the timeline - sagi couldnt work out the difference between a car and a driver, and in her confusion asked if any driver had ever won without the best car, you then helped her become more confused by doing some pscyhopathics on the stats to agree that the best car almost always won. So I introduced some factual data that linked Lewis, MS and Prost to a rare event that happens every decade or so - roughly a drivers time at the front

Therefore Lewis is the one driver each generation that does something only multi wdcs have done

with all these repeats of the sagi show and the roth show, its enough to drive a chap to this

[Roth]

It's this need to slip into every topic how great Hamilton is or how poor his opponents are, which in itself is counterintuitive. We were just making a general point. There was no need to go off on a Lew is brill tangent, and lump him in with a bunch of heroes.

I'm a bit to blame by going into the WCC standings and how it's not black and white, but I was trying to flesh out the original point of the car/driver mix. The standings table doesn't tell the whole story of the season.

[racechick]

I like Cookie's stats. I think I'll tweet them later if that's ok by you Cookie? My Lewis fan followers will LOVE them

Back to Vettel. I think his performances this year beg that we reasses Webber and certainly Ricciardo, in the latters case I believe we already have.

When Seb didn't have his rear diffuser to execute his cornering trick , Webber was on a par with him.

This year without his cornering trick Ricciardo is streets ahead.

Before F1 ( correct me if I'm wrong) Vettel was not winning all before him as some drivers do whilst blazing their trail to F1. In F1 he found himself in a car that was way ahead of the field and had a characteristic which he could exploit to it's fullest. He was hailed by some as a legend. No way in my eyes, even then, without the flop that is 2014.

What constitutes a legend? For me legends are Gilles Villeneuve, Ayrton Senna, Tazio Nuvorali ( I'm going to write a piece about him when I've finished the book I'm reading) There are possibly others from the distant past that I don't know enough about. But those three definitely and for me also Lewis Hamilton, at least a legend in the making. It's not about numbers of championships. Moss has non Vettel has four And I don't include Schumacher in my legend list. That's just me.
For me it's about how you win, who your peers are, who your team mate is, and it's about putting in the drives that make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up once in a while. It's about being special. In the case of Lewis his 2008 Silverstone win, his last two drives from the back of the grid, his ability to get Silverstone on its feet whilst battling Alonso for 15th in a dog of a car, his decisive overtaking etc,etc, his CLEAN and FAIR wheel to wheel racing with the best out there.

I'm not surprised at Vettel's performances this year, he's about where I'd place him. I am surprised at Ricciardo, class act!!

[1Lemon]

Correct me if I'm wrong Cookin'. Your stat is that Hammy is on the list you've put him on because he has won a WDC in a non WCC car?