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[What's Burning?]

Having said that, this year Hamilton's accomplishments have far surpassed those of previous F1 seasons. Although he has become a stronger driver, with each season, how much of this year's unprecedented success is attributable to the Mercedes car he's got under him? Is there any way to separate the success of a specific driver from a specific car in a specific season?

How can you argue that Vettel's success is attributable "only" to the Red Bull; but, then not give credit to the Mercedes machinery?

Since you missed the point entirely, I'll put it another way.

Your garden variety F1 driver should be able to win in a greatly superior car, that's not what's being discussed here. It's the winning in an inferior car that's being questioned. So far Vettel has failed miserably at that. Many of us here predicted he would. None of us here predicted his teammate would be mopping the floor with him.

The question remains. IF you say that "anyone" can win in a greatly superior car,
which Vettel did and only greats should be able to win in inferior cars, which Vettel
obviously isn't, thusfar. What are you then saying about Hamilton, since he didn't
win a title in the "inferior" cars he was previously driving?

Or, am I missing something again?

Yes you miss something. Hamilton is the only driver in F1 history to have won races in every year he's been in the sport. In quite a few of those years, he's put dogs on the podium sometimes even on the top step. You know, the same thing Alonso does and the Tifosi celebrate that a lot, so I'm sure even you should be able to draw parallels.

[CookinFlat6]

in 2008 the Mclaren was inferior to the Ferrari - ferrari were the bgest team with the best car yet Hamilton won

when was the last time a driver won in the car that wasnt the best?

[Roth]

When did Hamilton win in a dog of a car? If Vettel wins a race this season, and it's not beyond the realms of possibility, he will also have won in every full season he's competed in. If you're given a good car from the get-go it's easier to win. Hamilton's only an anomoly because he's had the chance. And it's only one barometer for success.

Mercs apart everybody needs luck this season to win. RB never had it so good from the start of a season as this. So winning isn't an issue in Vettel's case, beating his teammate is, and he's failing miserably at that. As good as he is Hamilton wouldn't be taking it to healthy Mercs if he was in a RB either. At best he'd be doing what Ricciardo is, picking up the pieces.

Where sagi falls down is perhaps not recognising driver input making the difference when things are tighter, but the best car almost always delivers the champion, so she's right there. The weight you give to the car/driver ratio is more biased towards if you like a team or driver. That's why this place exists.

[sagi58]

... Hamilton is the only driver in F1 history to have won races in every year he's been in the sport. In quite a few of those years, he's put dogs on the podium sometimes even on the top step. You know, the same thing Alonso does and the Tifosi celebrate that a lot, so I'm sure even you should be able to draw parallels.

Yes, I know that Alonso and Hamilton are on a different level, from the rest of the grid!
But, where you're talking about winning "a" race with an inferior car, I was referring to
winning "a" title with one.

By the way, let's not consider the 2008 season, where the title was won by one point by
a great driver in an inferior car vs a "garden variety" driver in a better car. Neither of
them had a "commanding" season to compare to Vettel's these last four years; but, at
the end of the day, someone had to win the WDC and the better driver did.

[Roth]

in 2008 the Mclaren was inferior to the Ferrari - ferrari were the bgest team with the best car yet Hamilton won

when was the last time a driver won in the car that wasnt the best?

It wasn't inferior. It was nip and tuck all season, more horses for courses than outright pace difference. Kovi didn't help much.

[sagi58]

...Where sagi falls down is perhaps not recognising driver input making the difference when things are tighter, but the best car almost always delivers the champion, so she's right there. The weight you give to the car/driver ratio is more biased towards if you like a team or driver. That's why this place exists.

Actually, I believe that each of the components (33% driver, 33% team, 33% car) are equally important.
Where I've always maintained that Lady Luck is the deciding 1%, I can see your point is a valid one.
Thanks for the insight!

[What's Burning?]

Thanks for contributing Roth long time no talkie... Hamilton put a dog of a car, remember the 2009 McLaren on the podium the first race in Australia. That's an example of driving beyond the car, something Alonso has gotten lots of recognition for doing this year. And just to be clear, I said win as in win a race or get on a podium, it's someone else moving goal posts by saying winning championships.

[sagi58]

Since you're referring to myself, I did NOT move the goal posts.
You seem to have stopped the game at midfield!

I don't believe a "successful" season can be measured in terms of "a" win.
Otherwise, if "a" win is even remotely comparable to the success of winning
a title, then Pastor Maldonado features high the list of successful drivers.
After all, he did win "a" race (2012 Spanish GP)!

[Roth]

Thanks for contributing Roth long time no talkie... Hamilton put a dog of a car, remember the 2009 McLaren on the podium the first race in Australia. That's an example of driving beyond the car, something Alonso has gotten lots of recognition for doing this year. And just to be clear, I said win as in win a race or get on a podium, it's someone else moving goal posts by saying winning championships.

I meant just wins, not crowns too, and I think we were both probably thinking of 2009. McLaren were weird then though. They had the usual strong(ish) start, fell off an even bigger cliff than usual, then mid-season became a speed machine. Nobody really mentions this year for Hamilton but he had some great results. Vettel's problem is he won't get his usual mid-season Newey boost, he'll just have to keep chipping away at his style. He might sneak a win, two if he's lucky, depending on how Williams have gone over the break. He'll suffer with penalties though. There's certainly not going to be any miracles this year.

[CookinFlat6]

in 2008 the Mclaren was inferior to the Ferrari - ferrari were the bgest team with the best car yet Hamilton won

when was the last time a driver won in the car that wasnt the best?

It wasn't inferior. It was nip and tuck all season, more horses for courses than outright pace difference. Kovi didn't help much.

Looking at the history of F1, we can see that the winner of the WDC is almost always in the WCC winning team. Lewis was a glaring exception to that fact in 2008. But I am sure some will find excuses for that anomaly

[Roth]

McLaren's tally was let down by Kovi. Even a flat Kimi outscored him by 20 odd points. Ferrari got out of the blocks quicker and at times Massa was untouchable, his only great period as a driver; he shone at Turkey especially if i remember right. It's rather similar to 2006 and whether overall the Ferrari or Renault was the best car. Probably the driver made the difference the cars were so even over the season. Ferrari and the FIA did some impressive catching up that year. The 2008 Ferrari shaded it but it wasn't the best week in week out like we've seen recently with Merc and RB. So using the word 'inferior' is a bit misleading. The McLaren was a championship winning car. It just had one rubbish driver.

[CookinFlat6]

blah blah blah, still doesnt excuse why Lewis is one of the 2% or whatever of drivers to win a WDC in a team that didnt win the WCC

[Jabberwocky]

What percentage of championships have gone to the double?

Sent using NCC-1701

[What's Burning?]

Can we get back to the topic at hand? How Seb with with 4X WDC titles is doing with a car that was clearly designed to suit his teammate.

[Hammer278]

Can we get back to the topic at hand? How Seb with with 4X WDC titles is doing with a car that was clearly designed to suit his teammate.

"I see what you did there"