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[sagi58]

I guess this is where I'm supposed to run away and hide my head in shame?
NOT!

[LRW]

No you are supposed to acknowledge your claims are unsubstantiated.

[What's Burning?]

The Vettel support thread hasn't gotten this much action all year.

[sagi58]

I could say the same thing about me!!

[stonemonkey]

I could say the same thing about me!!

[CookinFlat6]

[Hammer278]

The Vettel support thread hasn't gotten this much action all year.

And the best part is not a SINGLE Vettel/Redbull fan in sight!

How does a team which kicked ar$e for 4 years have so few (nonexistent) fans?

[sagi58]

Most likely, it's because they aren't masochistic!

[What's Burning?]

Why is it that when we like a driver, we "explain" his difficult times and laud his good;
but, when it's a driver we don't particularly like, we "knew" he was too good to be true?

When you say we are you speaking about people in general? Lewis Hamilton fans? Tifosi? The ghosts of Vettel's fans? Football hooligans? Hockey players?

Personally since the 2011 season when Vettel was first running away with every race with a pole, 3 second lead by the time DRS was enabled and win recipe, I questioned his ability. I didn't wait till this year to make my mind up. His many chokes while put under pressure and inability to slice through the field with impunity we ample clues to base my opinion on. This year is simply substantiates everything that I've been saying since. I know I'm not alone here since a number of others had said the same.

Kind of like when heretics were burned at the stake for claiming the earth was not the center of the universe, and fast forward to Galileo's telescope being the catalyst for proving a lot of people and scripture wrong. He is an always will be a four time WDC and the record books will always show that. I Four loaves of wet bread doesn't entice me as much as one or two loaves of bread that's right out of the oven.

[LH44]

The Vettel support thread hasn't gotten this much action all year.

And the best part is not a SINGLE Vettel/Redbull fan in sight!

How does a team which kicked ar$e for 4 years have so few (nonexistent) fans?

I think they weren't necessarily Vettel fans per se, just happy a certain driver(s) were not winning and somehow convinced themselves that Vettel was the real deal and magically had half a second on everyone. They'd discount the car advantage with frequent regularity and talk up Webber's competence to make finger boy's record look good. Anthony Davidson was in that category of fans.

[racechick]

The Vettel support thread hasn't gotten this much action all year.

And the best part is not a SINGLE Vettel/Redbull fan in sight!

How does a team which kicked ar$e for 4 years have so few (nonexistent) fans?

I think they weren't necessarily Vettel fans per se, just happy a certain driver(s) were not winning and somehow convinced themselves that Vettel was the real deal and magically had half a second on everyone. They'd discount the car advantage with frequent regularity and talk up Webber's competence to make finger boy's record look good. Anthony Davidson was in that category of fans.

LOL yes he was , and I have a sneaky feeling it's because he has fairly healthy, though sometimes well disguised, dislike of Hamilton.

[sagi58]

Why is it that when we like a driver, we "explain" his difficult times and laud his good;
but, when it's a driver we don't particularly like, we "knew" he was too good to be true?

When you say we are you speaking about people in general? Lewis Hamilton fans? Tifosi? The ghosts of Vettel's fans? Football hooligans? Hockey players?...

I was speaking in general, about F1 and its drivers; but, after reading your question, I realized it could hold for just about anything in life.

...Personally since the 2011 season when Vettel was first running away with every race with a pole, 3 second lead by the time DRS was enabled and win recipe, I questioned his ability. I didn't wait till this year to make my mind up. His many chokes while put under pressure and inability to slice through the field with impunity we ample clues to base my opinion on. This year is simply substantiates everything that I've been saying since. I know I'm not alone here since a number of others had said the same...

I know you're going to take this as a snipe; but, it's not intended to be! I realize that Hamilton is a better driver than Vettel, that's NOT the issue I'm raising; however, anyone can google Hamilton's F1 career thusfar, to find more highs and lows than the Grand Canyon.

Having said that, this year Hamilton's accomplishments have far surpassed those of previous F1 seasons. Although he has become a stronger driver, with each season, how much of this year's unprecedented success is attributable to the Mercedes car he's got under him? Is there any way to separate the success of a specific driver from a specific car in a specific season?

How can you argue that Vettel's success is attributable "only" to the Red Bull; but, then not give credit to the Mercedes machinery?

Genuinely asked.

[geetface9]

The ghosts of Vettel's fans?

[What's Burning?]

Having said that, this year Hamilton's accomplishments have far surpassed those of previous F1 seasons. Although he has become a stronger driver, with each season, how much of this year's unprecedented success is attributable to the Mercedes car he's got under him? Is there any way to separate the success of a specific driver from a specific car in a specific season?

How can you argue that Vettel's success is attributable "only" to the Red Bull; but, then not give credit to the Mercedes machinery?

Since you missed the point entirely, I'll put it another way.

Your garden variety F1 driver should be able to win in a greatly superior car, that's not what's being discussed here. It's the winning in an inferior car that's being questioned. So far Vettel has failed miserably at that. Many of us here predicted he would. None of us here predicted his teammate would be mopping the floor with him.

[sagi58]

Having said that, this year Hamilton's accomplishments have far surpassed those of previous F1 seasons. Although he has become a stronger driver, with each season, how much of this year's unprecedented success is attributable to the Mercedes car he's got under him? Is there any way to separate the success of a specific driver from a specific car in a specific season?

How can you argue that Vettel's success is attributable "only" to the Red Bull; but, then not give credit to the Mercedes machinery?

Since you missed the point entirely, I'll put it another way.

Your garden variety F1 driver should be able to win in a greatly superior car, that's not what's being discussed here. It's the winning in an inferior car that's being questioned. So far Vettel has failed miserably at that. Many of us here predicted he would. None of us here predicted his teammate would be mopping the floor with him.

Thanks; but, I did understand you the first time.

The question remains. IF you say that "anyone" can win in a greatly superior car,
which Vettel did and only greats should be able to win in inferior cars, which Vettel
obviously isn't, thusfar. What are you then saying about Hamilton, since he didn't
win a title in the "inferior" cars he was previously driving?

What I'm getting at is that I don't believe it's possible to separate a winning team
into components and say that any one of them is more important than another, in
a given season.

Basically, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
Or, am I missing something again?