FORUMula1.com

[LRW]

Claire stalks me.

No. Frank does. Logged in as Claire.

[CookinFlat6]

I dunno, maybe because they've spent the best part of the last decade slowly but surely slipping down the grid, like you said. It's not a bad assumption to make. Like I assume if something upsets you, you go off like a bottle rocket. One day you might not and it will be a lovely surprise for everyone. Williams might stay the top-a-most of the pop-a-most. And that would be a lovely surprise too.

Assumptions are the mother of 'rothisms' - if someone voiced an opinion based on knowledge or fact, why would you counter it with your opinion based on assumption? It doesnt upset me, it just obliges me to speak up. Why not say 'i hear you, although I assume its an Indian summer although I havent really looked deeper into it at all'
When my 5 year old gets a bit lazy and makes assumptions, I always encourage her to go through an observation/evaluation thought process so that by the time she is older her neural pathways will allow her to think for herself effortlessly
Having said that this 'rothism' is a minor one compared to the LH mental healt one, but like I said to not speak up would be like letting the world go to hell without standing for something

However, the only teams to halt these declines have had mammoth budgets, with huge development packages, usually the outcome of corporate takeover. Williams have a midfield budget which was until very recently created less than midfield results. Unless this money they can raise is somewhere in the region of $150m dollars they're not going to make a sustained attack on the big boys. Certainly not long enough for someone of even an ageing Alonso's talent to be tempted by. All it takes is one rule change to go against them and have them slip back like Lotus. As an impression of how teams fair, this is the generally a sad truth.

So why are they near the front despite the useless massa? Ferrari have IIRC 7 times as much budget and are behind - are you sure mammoth budgets are all there is to this lark? Lotus slipped back because they have nearly no funds.

I also know I rile you and that you are going to take most opportunities to get a bit dramatic like this from relatively innocent comments, where you would otherwise be more accomodating. I actually enjoy it strangely.

dont worry definitely not riled, its just what the other side of an argument looks like. Its not about the innocence of the comments, its about the principle behind them.
E.g - its my firm belief that a lot of bad in the world is down to the profit motive for a few who are able to manipulate thiose that cant or wont think for themselves and delegate moral decisions etc to anyone who sounds plausible. This situation has slowly gotten better over the years as more people have access to more info. And we can see how hard dictators try to hide the info floating around from their subjects. So when some people in the 'free' world display the old mentality, its only right to point it out as they might not realise it. Like some people watch a race, and have to read a right up or Lucas take on it before they have an opinion.

This doesnt sound too bad if its just a few isolated minds. However its exactly the same as when they are thn willing to go to war on the back of what this p0erson said, not understanding why. Like the war in Iraq, many know the facts about WMDs and the trickery by Blair etc but they are not concerned about the wrong or right and say 'maybe its unfair but at least we kept cheap petrol prices' - actually the point is that, for the profit motive of a few, the masses were hoodwinked into allowing soldiers who cant think forthemsleves by law to go and die and kill for the profits of a few - not cheaper oil for the masses

before i go into a rant, lets just say I feel obliged to speak up when I see the familiar patterns, when people look but dont see whats there but whats been planted in their minds (for a profit motive)

I mean how any sane adults in todays world honestly stand up and say 'I will support this flag/politician/club/group' till the death no matter what its for, if 'leader' says this then the only thing I need to think about is when we start marching to war'

Ok, not saying you are at that level, but you are on the path

[Roth]

Assumptions are the mother of 'rothisms' - if someone voiced an opinion based on knowledge or fact, why would you counter it with your opinion based on assumption? It doesnt upset me, it just obliges me to speak up. Why not say 'i hear you, although I assume its an Indian summer although I havent really looked deeper into it at all'
When my 5 year old gets a bit lazy and makes assumptions, I always encourage her to go through an observation/evaluation thought process so that by the time she is older her neural pathways will allow her to think for herself effortlessly
Having said that this 'rothism' is a minor one compared to the LH mental healt one, but like I said to not speak up would be like letting the world go to hell without standing for something

I made an initial assumption before you attempted to correct me so nicely. I then countered it with a regular framework of how teams in F1 tend to stagnate toward the middle/bottom of the grid without a large enough budget. And that I don't see Williams being any different, but if I'm wrong, so be it. I didn't just feel it in my waters. I could get my calculator out if it would help, although god knows what I'd put into it to please you.

So why are they near the front despite the useless massa? Ferrari have IIRC 7 times as much budget and are behind - are you sure mammoth budgets are all there is to this lark? Lotus slipped back because they have nearly no funds.

Thay have been near the front for all of three or four races, let's not get carried away. A large budget helps you sustain development. I know a big budget doesn't mean everything but nor does your assertion that they have some technical collaborations in place. What is everybody else doing? Twiddling their thumbs? You obviously have a vested interest in the team, it makes you passionate, but it doesn't give your attempts at character assassination any more justification. Really, what would Claire say?

And to be fair to Massa he's sticking where it should be in quali, just races aren't his strong point. Maybe he should car share with Hamilton.

dont worry definitely not riled, its just what the other side of an argument looks like. Its not about the innocence of the comments, its about the principle behind them.
E.g - its my firm belief that a lot of bad in the world is down to the profit motive for a few who are able to manipulate thiose that cant or wont think for themselves and delegate moral decisions etc to anyone who sounds plausible. This situation has slowly gotten better over the years as more people have access to more info. And we can see how hard dictators try to hide the info floating around from their subjects. So when some people in the 'free' world display the old mentality, its only right to point it out as they might not realise it. Like some people watch a race, and have to read a right up or Lucas take on it before they have an opinion.

This doesnt sound too bad if its just a few isolated minds. However its exactly the same as when they are thn willing to go to war on the back of what this p0erson said, not understanding why. Like the war in Iraq, many know the facts about WMDs and the trickery by Blair etc but they are not concerned about the wrong or right and say 'maybe its unfair but at least we kept cheap petrol prices' - actually the point is that, for the profit motive of a few, the masses were hoodwinked into allowing soldiers who cant think forthemsleves by law to go and die and kill for the profits of a few - not cheaper oil for the masses

before i go into a rant, lets just say I feel obliged to speak up when I see the familiar patterns, when people look but dont see whats there but whats been planted in their minds (for a profit motive)

I mean how any sane adults in todays world honestly stand up and say 'I will support this flag/politician/club/group' till the death no matter what its for, if 'leader' says this then the only thing I need to think about is when we start marching to war'

Ok, not saying you are at that level, but you are on the path

You've got a heart of gold. But saying I'm a fledgling dictator is a stretch by anyone's standard. Or am I the supporter? I'm not getting it to be honest. There's an excellent point in there somewhere, I'm sure, but I don't seem to be wheedling it out. And I'm not even playing dumb, I genuinely have no idea how you got from me talking about Williams to WMD in so short a time.

And it does upset you. That's the definition of a rant. And that was a rant.

[Roth]

Where's he gonna go....he's stuck. Only 3 teams could potentially cut it in the next 5 years - Mercedes, Redbull and McLaren (Williams I'm afraid is a short term hope)

My intention is not to drop Hammy in it here, it's that his comment has exactly the same implication as mine. He might feel left out if you don't give him the ol' cookie special.

Sorry Hammy.

[CookinFlat6]

He said they were a short term hope, this does not preclude them becoming a medium term hope

and they would not even have to drop out of the top 3 in the meantime - like the term Indian Summer implies - the term means the summer has gone on much longer than expected, but you said they only staarted doing well for the last few races, so which is it? they are a 4 race flash in the pan, or the improvement we have seen this season has gone on too long

maybe your use of these loaded terms is confusing the point you try to get across, for me if someone says Indian summer they mean indian summer, if they say mental weakness they mean mental weakness, if they say sloppy etc etc, a bit like when i say button is a useless cowardly conniving sneaky lame duck, its not hard to undertsand what I mean

[What's Burning?]

Some people have no respect for the meaning of words. Or perhaps don't think they'll be remembered the following year or an hour from now... or worse, have those words used against them. It would be much simpler if everyone meant what they said and say what they meant, that would take what? an extra minute or two of thought. I think it's worth it as it would bring order and harmony to the interwebs.

[Roth]

He said they were a short term hope, this does not preclude them becoming a medium term hope

and they would not even have to drop out of the top 3 in the meantime - like the term Indian Summer implies - the term means the summer has gone on much longer than expected, but you said they only staarted doing well for the last few races, so which is it? they are a 4 race flash in the pan, or the improvement we have seen this season has gone on too long

maybe your use of these loaded terms is confusing the point you try to get across, for me if someone says Indian summer they mean indian summer, if they say mental weakness they mean mental weakness, if they say sloppy etc etc, a bit like when i say button is a useless cowardly conniving sneaky lame duck, its not hard to undertsand what I mean

I'm sure when someone says 'short term hope' they're not thinking past that. Otherwise they'd use a different term. He said 'short term hope'; I'm taking him on that otherwise it's just assumptions which are the devil's work.

We need to figure out what we mean by Indian Summer. I took it to mean it was a late burst of hot weather, typically out of season, so in a usually cool autumn, after the summer heat had already gone.

So Williams' summer would have been in the '90s, getting cooler until last year when it got positively frosty. Which would make this an Indian summer.

Your definition sounds like a long summer to me.

[Roth]

Some people have no respect for the meaning of words. Or perhaps don't think they'll be remembered the following year or an hour from now... or worse, have those words used against them. It would be much simpler if everyone meant what they said and say what they mean, that would take what? an extra minute or two of thought. I think it's worth it as it would bring order and harmony to the interwebs.

Apparently you don't know what an Indian summer is either. Atleast cookie was vaguely polite about it.

[Hammer278]

Where's he gonna go....he's stuck. Only 3 teams could potentially cut it in the next 5 years - Mercedes, Redbull and McLaren (Williams I'm afraid is a short term hope)

My intention is not to drop Hammy in it here, it's that his comment has exactly the same implication as mine. He might feel left out if you don't give him the ol' cookie special.

Sorry Hammy.

Short term when compared to my 5 year span (the first paragraph/lines set the precedence for the rest of the post). This easily means they could be 2nd in the WCC this year and the next, and then fall away to pieces again. I don't think Alonso would jump teams to spend 1 season and then piss off.

Please take my whole post into context Roth.

[Roth]

Both my term and yours implied it wouldn't be sustained. We were both saying I don't think Williams will cut it in the long run to justify a move by Alonso. I'm not attacking you, I'm pointing out that as terms in general conversation they have the same intent. Cookie happily let yours pass, he didn't mine.

I understand if you want to go into semantics to distance yourself from me.

I'm sorry for dragging you into it.

[Jabberwocky]

Let's hope Williams do not do a lotus and get carried away and massively overspend this year, then end up like Lotus has this year with Pasta

Sent using NCC-1701

[Hammer278]

Both my term and yours implied it wouldn't be sustained. We were both saying I don't think Williams will cut it in the long run to justify a move by Alonso. I'm not attacking you, I'm pointing out that as terms in general conversation they have the same intent. Cookie happily let yours pass, he didn't mine.

I understand if you want to go into semantics to distance yourself from me.

I'm sorry for dragging you into it.

I'm not trying to distance myself from anyone...I take only 1 person's side, and that's mine. It just so happens I agree with a few people here a lot more than usual due to similar mental approach to things I guess. Doesn't mean I think they're always right either.

From what I understood you called it an Indian Summer expecting them to go off the boil very soon and not keep up their current performance this year. Which I disagree with. However if you think they could sustain this charge for the next 1 year (mid 2015), end up maybe 2nd or 3rd this year and maybe 3rd next year, and still call that an Indian summer, I'm with you 100%. Because I don't see them kicking back this season...we're already over halfway and they've only improved massively, not fallen back any.

[stonemonkey]

Let's hope Williams do not do a lotus and get carried away and massively overspend this year, then end up like Lotus has this year with Pasta

Sent using NCC-1701

Sounds like they're fed up supplying Massa with new parts, he's been given an older spec floor for Hungary that they had kicking about the factory.

[ang4f1]

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/3147 ... s-symonds/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's good to see Williams at the sharp end...hope it continues..

[CookinFlat6]

People tend to point at the Merc engine to explain Williams' rise, but they overlook the complete paradigm shift that has taken place since Simmonds arrived. We have seen Lotus at the sharp end with much less resources, and Williams are very strong engineering wise, possibly second to Merc which bodes well for the next few years