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User avatar
By racechick
#411974
I enjoy reading and posting there.

But why only a Ferrari room?

As I said, I enjoy reading and posting in both ... so its not "only" the Mia Scuderia Lounge :yes:

.. Or a secret room for McLaren fans? ..

If we were trying to keep it a secret we're doing a pretty cr4p job then :hehe:

... It just seems an odd thing to me to go on an F1 forum and not want to debate things openly.

As I said I contribute and enjoy both side, sorry if it upsets up that I can enjoy multiple places on the net.


Secret , private, restricted membership, call it what you will. It's not a place open to all members of the forum.

It doesn't upset me at all that you enjoy posting in multiple places. It upsets me( upsets is too strong a word, narks me) that the privilege is offered only to Ferrari fans.
User avatar
By racechick
#411975
I enjoy reading and posting there.

But why only a Ferrari room?

There really is no need to believe that we're posting negative comments about anyone in Mia Scuderia!!
Think of the forum as being one big "dinner party" where there is a general conversation going on, and
the Ferrari Lounge as being a quiet on-the-side conversation that branches off from the general one.
It happens all the time, whenever there is a gathering of people. :wavey:


I really don't care whether you are saying negative comments about anything. That's not the point.
By Hammer278
#411977
I'm surprised that funny little lounge was allowed to start in the first place. How many have access to that place, the mods and a grand total of 3-4 other ppl? :hehe:
User avatar
By sagi58
#411984
You're right, it's not about either; however, you are the one who inadvertently took it off topic:

Full disclosure for those that don't have a MiaScuderia passes, Spanky answered my post in fair but somewhat debatable statements. A lot of is is simply definitions and how we have and do perceive things differently. He even said I was right about a few things. :wink:


Not that it's a problem!! :wavey:
By Hammer278
#411989
If it's not a problem what the hell is the point of that post^.
By CookinFlat6
#411991
how is it the same to take the discussion off topic vs to continue off topic as another discussion :confused:

really sagi you could consider the post more before you retort, just to avoid unintentionally irritating the others :thumbup:
By CookinFlat6
#411992
Secret , private, restricted membership, call it what you will. It's not a place open to all members of the forum.

It doesn't upset me at all that you enjoy posting in multiple places. It upsets me( upsets is too strong a word, narks me) that the privilege is offered only to Ferrari fans.


Yeah whats narky is the way conversations can get fragmented - 'did i tell everyone the answer in public or was in the private place?' then soon it will be 'I cant tell you the reason here but i told others in the private place' and ofcourse the real party piece 'I have said something in the private place, those are my credentials for my inability to discuss XYZ'

Speak in there, keep it in there, but then leave the others to discuss what they want about Ferrari out here. Dont supply an opinion on here and then corroborate it there. And finally, whats the point of having the private lounge and continuing to make the open Ferrari thread less open by banning topics. This isnt a fansite its a forum :yawn:
User avatar
By sagi58
#411993
...really sagi you could consider the post more before you retort, just to avoid unintentionally irritating the others :thumbup:

Very good advice!! Will keep it on file for future reference!! :thumbup:
#412866
Took me a while to respond to Spanky's response but here it is. As I mentioned before I think he's been fair with his response but obviously is looking at things differently to myself and others regarding the engine situation. I also took the liberty to link some of the sources Spanky quoted in his response since Hammer asked for it. Specifically, as you see Norbert's response is not directly substantiating the claim, only that they like any other manufacturer has to look out for their best interests towards the future.
http://www.motorsportblog.it/post/14278 ... -motoristi
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/ferra ... 19622.html
http://en.espnf1.com/fia/motorsport/story/52832.html
and my source.
http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one ... ing-series

Since I've been off this week, I looked at some of the sources you linked to and although they prove your point in some aspects, they also prove my point in others. For example Ferrari's GDI is a means to make use of efficient fuel utilization, something that you've been vociferously against. So the change to that request from Mercedes was to further expand the use of energy recovery. The problem with using half arguments is that isn't a black and white thing.

You're correct about the previous "exception" being made for Renault in their V8, but it doesn't negate the fact that a ton of improvement can and is being done to the existing engines via the three exceptions I noted above, and in fact the lion's share of gains is to be had with ECU refinements, not engine overhauls. Let's see what Ferrari put on the grid next year, but in this case of who said what and threats to leave if they don't get what they want, ALL engine manufacturers have stated such, and although I wasn't away of the Newey comments of Audi coming into the sport if the engines were made four cylinder turbos, I also recall commentary that the original intent of the FiA was to standardize and therefore increase the potential pool of engine manufacturers by having WRC and F1 share engine platforms, so you can't place this at the feet of any manufacturer. SOURCE

The point I've made is that a lot of the Tifosi are arguing both sides of the coin and you can't do that and remain credible. Ferrari missed an opportunity they shouldn't have missed. Why? Maybe Mattiacci will find out or will figure out, but the Tifosi et al have to stop with the blame every thing and everyone else mentality when it's clear their performance this year has everything to do with their failure to capitalize on the opportunity put before them.
User avatar
By racechick
#412872
excellent post WB. :clap: . I haven't had time to look through all those links yet but shall enjoy doing so this evening.
By CookinFlat6
#412884
errm, how does the claim Merc demanded the hybrid and threatened to quit get substantiated in even the slightest degree by this quote?
In different ways and at different times, both Ferrari, Mercedes, Cosworth instead have raised serious doubts about the wisdom of the decision. According to Haug there is still a need to talk about it, even though Mercedes is already working on future perspective. "Clearly we are preparing, but we have to assess the situation as a whole. There are still problems, and not all motorists are aligned.


big FAIL

Like Mercedes-Benz, Ferrari too are supportive of Formula One's plans to switch to smaller, turbocharged units from 2013 onwards, only the Italian manufacturer doesn't want to make that step unless it will be joined by some cutting-edge fuel efficiency technologies also.

According to Ferrari's CEO Amedeo Felisa, who is present at the Beijing Auto Show these days, the path that Formula One should follow for the future in terms of engine development is the Gasoline Direct Injection concept, as it cuts fuel consumption very efficiently.

“If F1 has to develop something helpful for real driving conditions, then the best solution is for an engine that is turbocharged and GDI. That is what we would support. It is the best solution for driving efficiency and utilization of the engine in a positive way,” Felisa was quoted as saying by British publication Autocar.


So Ferrari agreed to turbos and smaller displacements and INSISTED GDI was within the regs as this was of direct relevance to THEIR road car business

and focused development on this

Ferrari looks to have come up with another of the big Formula 1 innovations of the 2014 season.

It emerged last week that the new Ferrari F14T features an unique cooling system that allows their new challenger to have very small sidepods, notwithstanding the extreme cooling demands of the all-new ‘Power Unit’ rules.

Now, La Gazzetta dello Sport reports that Ferrari’s new V6 turbo engine is also highly innovative.

The report said the engine features a ‘cut-off’ system that works with the direct injection to keep engine temperatures low and save crucial fuel.

The system means that, at times, the flow of fuel into the combustion chamber is stopped altogether and the engine is not sparked.


and then started b!tching and moaning when Mercs lighter and more powerful unit rendered their ""innovative"" fuel saving system to the dustbin

Montezemolo said as he arrived in Bahrain: 'My position is clear, since a few months ago when I said that the risk of the new rules is to have drivers who have to save tyres, save fuel - this is not Formula 1,'


and then tried to change the rules previously agreed because they had produced a fuel thirsty sh!tbox
Ferrari wanted the cars to carry more fuel so that they didn't have to run through energy saving and fuel saving modes during a Grand Prix or to shorten the races so that fuel was less of an issue.


The most retiring and quiet guy in F1 was motivated enough to comment
'There were things being talked about in the last weeks and days that were just completely unrealistic, The first suggestion was we need 110 kilograms [of fuel]. Has anyone realised you couldn't fit 110 kilograms into these cars? Ah, oh dear! Lowe joked to Sky Sports.

'Then there was talk of making the races shorter. Can you imagine selling that concept to the public? It would be like saying 'we've decided people aren't fit enough these days and marathons are only going to be 25 miles, not 26'. The messaging around that cannot be contemplated.

'So I hope all of that, and this ridiculous talk of fuel saving, can be put behind us. In Bahrain the guys were racing from beginning to end, and it was a completely normal level of fuel saving.'

Unfortunately Montezemolo didn't stay around to watch the entire race in Bahrain and left as soon as it became apparent that it was going to be another uncompetitive race for Ferrari.

the links to Max and Audi are irrelevant - they were never in dispute

No wonder it took 3 months and a private lounge to respond to requests for clarification of the bold claims and sweeping statements made that only Sagi agreed with enthusiastically. Others asked for clarification, and after all this time, this is it? :yikes:

The point I've made is that a lot of the Tifosi are arguing both sides of the coin and you can't do that and remain credible. Ferrari missed an opportunity they shouldn't have missed. Why? Maybe Mattiacci will find out or will figure out, but the Tifosi et al have to stop with the blame every thing and everyone else mentality when it's clear their performance this year has everything to do with their failure to capitalize on the opportunity put before them.


Its embarrasing, especially when the noise of the engine and the speeds and the engine freeze are offered as reasons to change the rules mid season by those willing to dictate acceptable and allowed opinion on a forum.

i wonder how long before one of the more "irreverent" and aggressive ""opinion"" websites does a piece on how public opinion can be ignorantly shaped on forums with partisan yet ignorant ""censors""
User avatar
By sagi58
#412900
@ CookinFlat6, please take this in the spirit it is intended, which is honestly:

I sincerely wish I had the time to dedicate to a sport which, must as it
fascinates me, is obviously an obsession for you.

May you fight your demons with the same commitment and dedication,
that you may conquer all that tries to derail your journey.

I know I wouldn't want to be one of them! :thumbup:
User avatar
By spankyham
#412905
Took me a while to respond to Spanky's response but here it is. As I mentioned before I think he's been fair with his response but obviously is looking at things differently to myself and others regarding the engine situation. I also took the liberty to link some of the sources Spanky quoted in his response since Hammer asked for it. Specifically, as you see Norbert's response is not directly substantiating the claim, only that they like any other manufacturer has to look out for their best interests towards the future.
http://www.motorsportblog.it/post/14278 ... -motoristi
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/ferra ... 19622.html
http://en.espnf1.com/fia/motorsport/story/52832.html
and my source.
http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one ... ing-series

Since I've been off this week, I looked at some of the sources you linked to and although they prove your point in some aspects, they also prove my point in others. For example Ferrari's GDI is a means to make use of efficient fuel utilization, something that you've been vociferously against. So the change to that request from Mercedes was to further expand the use of energy recovery. The problem with using half arguments is that isn't a black and white thing.

You're correct about the previous "exception" being made for Renault in their V8, but it doesn't negate the fact that a ton of improvement can and is being done to the existing engines via the three exceptions I noted above, and in fact the lion's share of gains is to be had with ECU refinements, not engine overhauls. Let's see what Ferrari put on the grid next year, but in this case of who said what and threats to leave if they don't get what they want, ALL engine manufacturers have stated such, and although I wasn't away of the Newey comments of Audi coming into the sport if the engines were made four cylinder turbos, I also recall commentary that the original intent of the FiA was to standardize and therefore increase the potential pool of engine manufacturers by having WRC and F1 share engine platforms, so you can't place this at the feet of any manufacturer. SOURCE

The point I've made is that a lot of the Tifosi are arguing both sides of the coin and you can't do that and remain credible. Ferrari missed an opportunity they shouldn't have missed. Why? Maybe Mattiacci will find out or will figure out, but the Tifosi et al have to stop with the blame every thing and everyone else mentality when it's clear their performance this year has everything to do with their failure to capitalize on the opportunity put before them.


Good post WB. I approve of you moving it from the Miascuderia lounge where it originated to here - in this case it was appropriate.

I would add that pretty much all the Tifosi I have engaged on the engine discussion have all acknowledged, as I have on multiple occasions, that Mercedes most definitely did the best job with their interpretation of the rules and arrived at Melbourne with the best overall PU. It is not the first and it probably won't be the last time a team arrives at the start of a season with a better PU than Ferrari. In that sense I don't see either the Tifosi or Ferrari with an "blame" others attitude. I also support Ferrari and their leadership's right be critical of rules and F1's promotional activities, or lack thereof.

What I see from my team now is similar to how they have reacted to diversity in the past, a determination to improve and strive to become the best. As I am want to remind people, one of the records I am most proud of Ferrari having is that they have lost more than any other team in F1 history. That determination is inspirational for me. Staying is easy when you are winning, having the guts and determination to stay at other times is a different test.

Personally I don't think Ferrari as a team is quite as far from being at the leading edge as the F14T is on the track. I like the changes made to the team and I think it is a good progression. I'm enjoying seeing the in-team developments this year, and of course I'm hoping that our car next year will be competitive :thumbup:

I appreciate your sentiments WB and like you, I too have learned from your contributions to this discussion. As I have quoted a few times before “The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.” - Albert Einstein. Of course the corollary to that is those who never listen, learn and change have zero intelligence :yes::yes::yes:
#412915
I'd have to dig it up but I read somewhere that estimates were that ECU fine tuning would account for appx 70% of all power gained on these engines going forward through harmonizing the ice, ERS and turbo.

I got 11 additional rear wheel horsepower by optimizing the ROM on my 28 year old Porsche to take advantage of headers, a sport exhaust, a K&N filter and 93 octane gas that we can get on the east coast. Imagine what you'd be able to squeeze out of a new F1 engine.
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