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[EwanM]

he argues about the slower cars still being at the back.

The slower cars will ALWAYS be at the back. It's not as if you ever saw a Coloni/Pacific/Simtek/Forti/EuroBrun/Life leading a race, we've seen a Spyker leading a race though.

LOL and what a race that was!

[Denthúl]

he argues about the slower cars still being at the back.

The slower cars will ALWAYS be at the back. It's not as if you ever saw a Coloni/Pacific/Simtek/Forti/EuroBrun/Life leading a race, we've seen a Spyker leading a race though.

If Winkelhock had won that race, it would have been spectacular. However, he unfortunately made the wrong tyre choice at his pit stop and we were denied what could have been the best result of 2007.

[8-ball]

Any regulation that gets rid of those poky bits i support 100% but safety wise i am not sure whether this is a good idea. No TC and now these aero regs. The drivers are going to spend half the race on gravel!

[f1ea]

Increasing mechanical grip (wider, slicks etc.) and reducing aero-efficiency (bigger wings, and taking away all the wing-ey gadgets and so on) will definitely produce more drag, which will (could) eventually slow them F1s down... so who knows, maybe they'll modify the engine freeze and we'll get the V10/12 's back again (plus that 'boost' energy recovery device already in talks).

It's really hard to say just from a single measure how much impact it will have, as nothing is linear or straightforward. That's why I agree that if F1 wants to keep competitive and moving forward, the rules and regulations have to be continiously revised, not revolutionized....

[bud]

Increasing mechanical grip (wider, slicks etc.) and reducing aero-efficiency (bigger wings, and taking away all the wing-ey gadgets and so on) will definitely produce more drag,

actually taking away some aero parts and making the cars more stream lined will decrease drag and the cars will probably be faster on the straights than they are now, in cornering speeds is where we will see the difference with the aero regs.
even with better mechanical grip the cornering will be the big difference.

[Denthúl]

Increasing mechanical grip (wider, slicks etc.) and reducing aero-efficiency (bigger wings, and taking away all the wing-ey gadgets and so on) will definitely produce more drag,

actually taking away some aero parts and making the cars more stream lined will decrease drag and the cars will probably be faster on the straights than they are now, in cornering speeds is where we will see the difference with the aero regs.
even with better mechanical grip the cornering will be the big difference.

Yes, but by also reducing the aerodynamic efficiency, any gain that would have come from losing the drag by removing winglets will be canceled out.

[bud]

Increasing mechanical grip (wider, slicks etc.) and reducing aero-efficiency (bigger wings, and taking away all the wing-ey gadgets and so on) will definitely produce more drag,

actually taking away some aero parts and making the cars more stream lined will decrease drag and the cars will probably be faster on the straights than they are now, in cornering speeds is where we will see the difference with the aero regs.
even with better mechanical grip the cornering will be the big difference.

Yes, but by also reducing the aerodynamic efficiency, any gain that would have come from losing the drag by removing winglets will be canceled out.

explain! ?

by taking away alot of the downforce and removing the little winglets chimneys etc the car will become alot more sleak and the drag coefficient will actually become better than it is now.

the term aerodynamic efficiency would be in terms of using the aero for downforce in cornering this is where it is not as efficient, thats in the downforce category. drag is another dimension of efficency all together

[f1ea]

by taking away alot of the downforce and removing the little winglets chimneys etc the car will become alot more sleak and the drag coefficient will actually become better than it is now.

Not really. Drag is mostly generated at the rear wing, the other wings and gadgets basically manage the flow of air around the car so that when it goes through the rear wing it produces the smallest energy loss. Increasing the size of this rear wing will always produce more drag (while increasing the grip will produce more friction and if the tyres are bigger then more weight) and reducing the aero-efficiency will produce more energy losses and more drag; so this could mean worse lap times... but its not as simple or direct as this, because they may not completely lose out on lap times as cornering speeds can increase while the mechanical grip / slicks is there; it is for example, when the tyres are worn out when then they can lose some of this cornering speed (because they will also have increased weight and drag).

drag is another dimension of efficency all together

Drag is not a dimension of efficiency. Drag can be seen as an 'energy loss' and in the end its a factor of the overall aerodynamic efficiency of the car and the size, shape and angle of the rear wing. The little wings (and even the front wing) basically direct the air so that this energy loss (when the air hits the rear wing) is the smallest possible, compromising to maximize the downforce generated.

[bud]

Hangon thats what i just said! they arent having bigger rear wings, they are having less downforce at the rear than they are now next year.
thats why i said next year they will have less drag!

its simple less obstruction in the airflow less drag, less wings winglets less drag, lower the aero coefficient


see here the rear wing McLaren were testing is similar to 09 regs. less downforce

[f1ea]

Yes its all about the rear wing... I read somewhere they will have bigger Rear wings. I will try and hope to have the time to find where it was.......

[bud]

have a look at the regs on the http://www.FIA.com website

but yeah it will be interesting to see the comparison in laptimes with more mechanical grip less downforce compared to the current formula.

[f1ea]

Ahhhh I see, they will have HIGHER and WIDER Rear Wings...
but higher because of the placement not the size.

[Kiwi_Chris]

It's really hard to say just from a single measure how much impact it will have, as nothing is linear or straightforward. That's why I agree that if F1 wants to keep competitive and moving forward, the rules and regulations have to be continiously revised, not revolutionized....

Normally i would agree that the regs shouldnt be messed with to much, but F1 cant continue in the state its in and it got there buy small regulation revisions that ultimatly sent the car designs in the wrong direction so a 'reset' is definitly needed to revitilise the sport, and on the face of it the 09 changes seem to be a big step in the right direction.

[f1ea]

Oh, I had forgotten about this thread...
An idea with Lap times for 09 could be:

a) For a given circuit, the low / medium speed cornering sectors will see better times (that is considering optimun condition slicks). However as the tyres wear out, some time should be lost.

b) High speed-curves (sectors) will probably be taken slower (when the tyres are upkept to maintain them that way... and when the tyres are worn forecefully), so we could see some time loss with the new regs. Unless of course, interesting changes in chassis, suspension and weight distribution come in... we'll see.

c) Straight line speed should definitely increase.

And I think 'fastest laps' will be faster in circuits like Barcelona, Monaco, Monza, Canada, Melbourne... But overall time will probably be similar depending with tyre wear. Maybe pit strategies will become interesting... and we could some more 3-stoppers. And maybe slower fastest laps in Turkey, Spa and Silverstone...
Set up and tyre conservation will be crucial.

Definitely looking forward to 09. If Kimi is actually planning on retiring I'm sure he'll at least wait to race one season with slicks.

[welshie]

Have to say I've been rather lazy and not read most of these posts, but yes I'm looking forward to the new regulations!