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[What's Burning?]

Roth, you're welcomed to join our pool game, sounds like you'd do very well. I'm currently leading.

[Roth]

Roth you are missing the point here, yes you have an opinion, however why rely on circumstantial evidence and push it when there are lots of facts available that dont really agree.
Opinion - you say he was sloppy,
Facts - he performed a tricky operation at least 17 times + 1 time he didnt complete it + sloppy implies a behaviour, an attitude + he had a reasonable excuse + in F1 racing to be sloppy is anti performance, its not good
Conclusion - A completion rate of 94.11% says he wasnt sloppy 17 times, maybe the other times were also sloppy but he got lucky? lucky 94.11% of the moves, or maybe he just got sloppy because it had been a long race and he needed a cuppa, but hold on, he then went on to drive with a damaged car even better than before
Ok so he was confirmed to be sloppy 5.88% of the time, in one iteration in 17. So he let his true hidden nature out just the one time and thats enough?
Nope - just sounds like the guy will always be failing somehow in your books - thats how it sounds, maybe theres some translation issue, you could have meant the guy is basically of a certain impestuos character and you reckon we saw a flash of it. that is more in line with facts and more 'reasonable' sounding

You've actually gone and got your calculator out there. Are you mnm? Statistically, ragged is 29.72% or greater? You're just drawing your own line in the sand. I'm not even getting into that because you can make this stuff drag out all day, and it's pointless.

How is he made contact twice and came very close with Kimi circumstantial? He hit Button, that's direct evidence. Sutil hit him because he was in a blind spot, and he didn't necessarily have to be there. We saw it happen, so that's not circumstantial. He came within a hair's breadth of hitting Kimi, so that was luck as much as skill that he didn't.

Sloppy doesn't mean he was weaving all over the track it means at certain points he could have handled overtaking better, a skill which he is generally considered very good at. I said it was uncharacteristic. It's a narrow track, the hairpin was a popular place to overtake, it got chaotic down there now and again, maybe it made it look worse than it was, but he looked a bit ragged.

If I had said "the guy is basically of a certain impestuos character and you reckon we saw a flash of it." You would not have gone, fair point Roth. You would have gone on another little rant about how I don't understand Hamilton. Like your criticism of his character is valid and mine isn't. There's disagreeing with my point and there's disagreeing but bringing up an equally assumptive character assessment and pretending it's OK.

Or he went 20 to 3? But shouldn't it have been second if he hadn't hit Button? Hang on it should have been first because there should have been a safety car which would have brought Hamilton up to Bottas and Nico and, well you fill in the rest. Predicting outcomes isn't fact either but I don't see you refuting any posts like that. Is that because they are victim posts in an alternate universe where Hamilton wins and everyone's happy and not like mine which are Hamilton was a bit ragged but which doesn't follow your script, so don't count. And I said he should finish second on some thread. I don't want the man to fail, take no joy in it, but am willing to bring up reasons why.

The speculation about the safety car and not hitting Button is not just wishful thinking, its about very interesting and ultimately successful strategy. I even said exactly the same thing posted before the race - he would make an extra stop on options, this would make any SC a complete bonus and a chance to race Nico, and if not he would finish ahead of Bottas who would have older tyres (no SC no change)
Merc should win the price for best strategy and on the fly changes
Thats why its a part of the story

Yeah, that was a reply to WB saying I had to stick to facts, not you can't credit Merc for trying something on the fly. The non-safety car issue was being made into a Hamilton wuz robbed issue, when it wasn't a given he would have won. It was mere speculation. You on the other hand were congratulating Merc on a supplying Hamilton with the best strategy possible, but unfortunatley circumstances outside of their control means it didn't fulfill it's potential, which would have been Hamilton challenging for the win. Which is a good point. That's different to assuming Hamilton would have won. That's conjecture.

[Roth]

Roth, you're welcomed to join our pool game, sounds like you'd do very well. I'm currently leading.

I actually popped over the other day and noticed you at the top. That's some serious precog stuff you've got going on there, WB.

I might give it a shot. I'd have a reason to cheer Lewis on then.

[What's Burning?]

He hit Button, that's direct evidence.

I think we've established that Button turned in on him, six of one half dozen of the other. It's all good because he did what he had to do, and only being lucky would have given him a shot at more than what he got.

Then again if there had been luck we wouldn't be having the discussion in the first place because he would have not been down in 20th place.

[CookinFlat6]

You on the other hand were congratulating Merc on a supplying Hamilton with the best strategy possible, but unfortunatley circumstances outside of their control means it didn't fulfill it's potential, which would have been Hamilton challenging for the win. Which is a good point. That's different to assuming Hamilton would have won. That's conjecture.

And congratulating Lewis even more because not many could have pulled out the laps consistently that he was after the long first stint, Merc and Lewis executed the strategy perfectly (which would involve passing quick thru the field and no hold ups behind slow cars) and had the best outcome lined up....until he was hit by button....for which he was called sloppy...impatient..over eager....impestuos and for good measure said to have handled ALL the overtaking badly because he ALMOST hit Kimi and got a nudge from Sutil.

So tell us roth, you already agreed that Lewis and Merc had made no mistakes and executed a strategy that most likely could have won given some luck with safety car and no car issue,
if the safety car had been deployed (clearly possible) and no damage and Lewis had beaten Nico, would you still say Lewis was sloppy and it wasnt a great drive?

The world would be hailing it as the best F1 race, better than Buttons, no strategy fluke in Canada 2011

Can you confirm that you would still say Lewis went about it the wrong way, was too sloppy etc because NOTHING changes from Lewis' perspective in that scenario

If you wouldnt critize him (for his sloppyness etc) after the winning scenario then you either like to kick a driver when he has set backs or you just hate Lewis but dont even realise it

For example I like to kick Jenson because he deserves it and because he constantly does things to deserve it, in fact while he is at Mclaren he is doing a bad think by default. But at least each kick is based entirely on the back of an actual new fact and then a bit of conjecture affords a gratuitous kick while he is still on the floor.

Cant just lay down some opinion backed by conjecture despite a bunch of real facts because Lewis feels entitled or his fans are (whatever you decided today). Well you can, but you gotta expect some 'gentle' suggestions

[Hammer278]

I think Lewis has cracked a bit mentally. Austria was a bit of a one-off, or so we thought.

This time it seemed he was desperately trying to convince himself and the team that it was not worth a try in the end...and the team told him to let Nico through. Why didn't he just go ahead and do the bloody lap like everyone else did?

Shows to me Lewis is not comfortable with Nico's speed now, especially in qualifying. If he had no fear he would've just done the SOP, go for the last lap since the tyres are going into the bin anyway. It was a strange qual, but your WDC rival is going for the lap, why the f**k would you abort your chance? Not at all wise. This doesn't show a lack of intelligence to me though, more of fear.

The WDC is now harder than ever. And Nico's earned every bit of what he's got except for the sh!t he pulled in Monaco, that's worth a potential 14 points max (reverse 1-2). If he gets the WDC, the Lewis bashers are going to have a field day.....even as a Lewis supporter I was shouting !DIOT when I heard from Crofty that Lewis had let Nico through.

...which side are you on, Hammie, because it's curious behaviour?

Wow this thread has run....apologies Roth, time difference and all that.

Are you seriously asking me that question? You seem an intelligent enough guy, maybe I'm just a big fan who recognizes a guy's immense talent and doesn't hesitate criticizing him when he deserves to be criticized. He did publicly admit to a huge mistake there, and I made that post way before his comments were out. And this is far from my first critic of him, other guys here can attest to that.

I just get annoyed when others (fans or not) criticize him without any actual fact or reasoning to back it up. Way too much nitpicking going on when Lewis is concerned and two faced judgement. Yours look more like nitpicking to me though, which is not nearly as bad as the latter. And the latter type is a very big population indeed....I see them everywhere, on site comments, other boards, and there are a few in this forum too (but not you, as yet).

[Roth]

Wow this thread has run....apologies Roth, time difference and all that.

Are you seriously asking me that question? You seem an intelligent enough guy, maybe I'm just a big fan who recognizes a guy's immense talent and doesn't hesitate criticizing him when he deserves to be criticized. He did publicly admit to a huge mistake there, and I made that post way before his comments were out. And this is far from my first critic of him, other guys here can attest to that.

I just get annoyed when others (fans or not) criticize him without any actual fact or reasoning to back it up. Way too much nitpicking going on when Lewis is concerned and two faced judgement. Yours look more like nitpicking to me though, which is not nearly as bad as the latter. And the latter type is a very big population indeed....I see them everywhere, on site comments, other boards, and there are a few in this forum too (but not you, as yet).

It's okay, Ham, I've been kept company.

No, I wasn't seriously asking you the question but you are doing what cookie does which is draw your own line in the sand about what's acceptable. Maybe I just like my line a bit further out to sea.

Something was bugging Hamilton after the race, he obviously wasn't happy but seemed polite enough. I only know he wasn't going to be drawn on the safety car issue, and rightly so. Did he say anything specifically about the race that would explain his mood? His fan seem happy enough with 20 to 3 but not him.

[Hammer278]

Maybe the fact that his teammate won another race almost by default while he had to pass 17 cars to get 10 less points.

[Roth]

Maybe the fact that his teammate won another race almost by default while he had to pass 17 cars to get 10 less points.

That's true. I'd completely forgotten about Nico in all this hoo-ha.

[Roth]

You on the other hand were congratulating Merc on a supplying Hamilton with the best strategy possible, but unfortunatley circumstances outside of their control means it didn't fulfill it's potential, which would have been Hamilton challenging for the win. Which is a good point. That's different to assuming Hamilton would have won. That's conjecture.

And congratulating Lewis even more because not many could have pulled out the laps consistently that he was after the long first stint, Merc and Lewis executed the strategy perfectly (which would involve passing quick thru the field and no hold ups behind slow cars) and had the best outcome lined up....until he was hit by button....for which he was called sloppy...impatient..over eager....impestuos and for good measure said to have handled ALL the overtaking badly because he ALMOST hit Kimi and got a nudge from Sutil.

So tell us roth, you already agreed that Lewis and Merc had made no mistakes and executed a strategy that most likely could have won given some luck with safety car and no car issue,
if the safety car had been deployed (clearly possible) and no damage and Lewis had beaten Nico, would you still say Lewis was sloppy and it wasnt a great drive?

The world would be hailing it as the best F1 race, better than Buttons, no strategy fluke in Canada 2011

Can you confirm that you would still say Lewis went about it the wrong way, was too sloppy etc because NOTHING changes from Lewis' perspective in that scenario

If you wouldnt critize him (for his sloppyness etc) after the winning scenario then you either like to kick a driver when he has set backs or you just hate Lewis but dont even realise it

For example I like to kick Jenson because he deserves it and because he constantly does things to deserve it, in fact while he is at Mclaren he is doing a bad think by default. But at least each kick is based entirely on the back of an actual new fact and then a bit of conjecture affords a gratuitous kick while he is still on the floor.

Cant just lay down some opinion backed by conjecture despite a bunch of real facts because Lewis feels entitled or his fans are (whatever you decided today). Well you can, but you gotta expect some 'gentle' suggestions

Apparently I can't give Hamilton praise enough without you wanting me to take it to the next level. In certain circles we might whisper the word indoctrination. If so, do I have to wear a costume?

You're not so stable on the Button incident, appearing to shift from one slightly different POV to another depending on your exact point. If Lewis apologises both during and after the race, that's not steady ground for blaming Button. I never said he handled all the overtaking badly either - that's just wrong. You can't just make stuff up, it makes you look a bit potty. You even went down the stats road, so I knew there was trouble ahead, avoiding that pointless exercise as we both introduce different non-agreeable parameters, finally resting somewhere near the god arguement.

You're also asking me to pretend he didn't do things (get damage) and make a judgement about a similar race in a parallel universe (where the SC came out), and apply it to the race we actually had, like that's the real result. But contact is sloppy. If he hadn't had some incidents I would never have had the point to raise in the first place. We wouldn't be having this bone of contention. So, you know, Hamilton started it.

In your scenario, yes, I'm sure with a bit of luck with a SC and not being scrappy he'd have won. And we'd still be talking about it in years to come. Maybe. Probably. I don't know. Something else could have cropped up as result of a different timeline and the butterfly effect. If you really want to go down that rocky road. Unless you want an 'all other things being equal' scenario. Yeah, let's spend all day talking about all the ways he could have won the race, if it makes you feel better.

Meanwhile back on earth he hit Button and there wasn't a safety car. And he was third. Not a bad result.

[racechick]

Well I have missed some good discussion points. ( I'm home now)
I can't go back and pick out every point I want to comment on so a few general answers to things that have been said over the last few pages.

I do criticises Hamilton when it's due, I did after Silverstone quali.

I don't put Rosberg down. My criticism has only been for Monacco. Other than that he's driven fantastic and as I said from the outset Merc easily have the best driver pairing on the grid.

Yes I grumble when the luck goes against Lewis, as it seems to more often than not, and yes I will likely mention it if it has a baring on the championship. It's a salient fact. That's not putting Rosberg down or making excuses up for Lewis. It's not Rosberg's fault how the luck pans out neither is it Mercedes, who have been very fair....I've always maintained that too.

Lewis was in a bad mood after the race, the Merc guys we spoke to afterwards said so, and I imagine it was over the safety car because it should have been deployed. It was dangerous not to do so, they bring out the safety car for far les than that. It was clearly to protect a Getman win in Germany in front of largely German fans. We all knew that, everyone at the track you spoke to knew that and Lewis knew that, but obviously couldn't say that. Had that spin not happened Lewis would have pitted later, not been on worn tyres at the end and finished second. Had the safety car come out as it should have, Merc had played a blinder calling him in when they did, he 'd have had track position and fresh tyres to challenge for the win. So understandable why he wasn't happy.

Roth, you accuse people of taking things you say out of context, but that's exactly what you do. You lump all Hamilton fans together as one entity and brand them all with the same opinions that may have been expressed by one person. You say ' we fanboys' don't accept criticism of Hamilton and then you repost something Hammer said criticising Hamilton??
RyRy has said he is not specifically a Hamilton fan but can appreciate his skill and he calls you out as being unfairly critical of him, so is he lumped into the 'fanboy' pool? As Hamilton supporters the thing we have in common is the supporting of the most exciting and naturally talented driver on the grid. How we express that and what we chose to say in defence of Hamilton when he's criticised unfairly is individual.

[What's Burning?]

Meanwhile back on earth he hit Button and there wasn't a safety car. And he was third. Not a bad result.

... and therein lies the difference between you and me, and I'd take the liberty to say between quite a few of us Lewis fans here on the forum. I appreciate the fact that, for Lewis it wasn't good enough. He went there to win, and because of an unfortunate mechanical issue the best he could do was a third step on the podium. Had he blown it qualifying he would have been a lot more accepting of the result.

You lack the passion to be a Hamilton fan. Just like I have too much logic to be a Tifosi. Thats okay, it's just the way of life. Accept that you're never going to see what we admire in the guy and you won't feel the need, the obligation to be so adversarial to the man. You're not the only one, we've had lots of them come and go. To a one, all of their arguments fall by the wayside and they leave tail between their legs. Because you know what? Even with his not being able to manage tires, not being consistent, not being able to save fuel, not being able to understand what all the buttons do, not being able to play psychological chess, not able to focus, not able to commit to the sport, and being weak of mind. He still rises, he still wins, and all your nitpicking will be for naught, because all we will remember is Lewis Hamilton, 2014 and two time WDC.

BTW... Button himself admitted he drove into Lewis.

[LRW]

BTW... Button himself admitted he drove into Lewis.

Hmm. I was with you up to this point WB. Button admitted he could see why there was a misunderstanding between himself and Lewis, and how Lewis thought he was letting him by. Slightly different to admitting he drove into Lewis.

But the rest is all 100% spot on.

[What's Burning?]

BTW... Button himself admitted he drove into Lewis.

Hmm. I was with you up to this point WB. Button admitted he could see why there was a misunderstanding between himself and Lewis, and how Lewis thought he was letting him by. Slightly different to admitting he drove into Lewis.

But the rest is all 100% spot on.

I like to push it. It was a complete misunderstanding and both driver's admitted to their fault in the incident, but only one driver said this post race

“He drove into my rear wheel, that’s all I have to say. I guess he thought I was going to let him past but I am out there doing my race and it would be boring if we all just let him through coming through the field.”

So I can choose to view it as Button drove into Hamilton since Roth chose to view it as Hamilton drove into Button. There must be balance in the force.

[racechick]

I suspect after the race, and to the media, Button was doing his usual pass the blame .....with a sweet smile no doubt. Good detractor from his own 'issues' . Lewis , as is generally the case, puts up his hand, even if he is only partially responsible.
It's all very well retracting blame on Twitter and looking like mr. Nice Guy to his followers, damage was done when he blamed Lewis to the press, because people ( Roth for instance) took his word and as usual Lewis is at fault.