FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[spankyham]

OK, so as we approach what many consider a pivotal part of the season, the Spanish GP, I can't help but reflect on our very recent past. At the very sharp end, we have a pair of team-mates in a persistent state of lovey-doveyness (yes, making up words as I go)..Lewis and Nico…and I understand the work and results from two drivers pushing the team forward but, enough! I think it's time Lewis stop sharing his data and setup info with Nico's side of the garage. After all, this is competitive sport with the best man winning. If Lewis is better at identifying the strengths of the car and how to set it up…if he's better at going faster while using less tyre and petrol…if he's winning races under duress or on the trot, he's the best man. And he's not asking for it to be handed to him, he's working for it. Why would you want to have one driver so locked in, putting in the work…leading, and the other just saying, since I can't get any of this quite right, just give me my team-mate's bits and I'll use it to bring results and be a hero? It's like one student totally focusing in class, asking all kinds of questions, doing extra assignments and being totally engaged, studying and then showing up on the big test day just to have the guy next to him who is not completely prepared say "I'll just take your answers for that A, thank you very much."

Goes without saying that I don't subscribe to the theory that it takes both drivers in concert to push the team forward if they are both already good and the car is good. Look back to the Michael/Rubens, Sebastien/Mark era. You can have one dominant driver and bring home both Championships. I think at this point of the Championship where it has been established that the season's race will be between the Mercedes-AMG pair, it should be a pure fight…all about ability, knowledge and your individual effort. It is my view that Lewis should be allowed to hold his cards close to the vest and skin them when they matter most. If Nico is as good as he believes, let him prove it…do his own work and truly earn the WDC.

I'm very curious what you lot think of all this.

Are we having fun yet?

If you have a really great team, a great car and you can win both championships with a great and good driver. Lewis is really stamping himself as leader and #1 at Mercedes and, IMO, he deserves the territory that come with that. Put another way, how silly would it be for for the team to jeopardize that?

[What's Burning?]

McLaren jeopardized it plenty in 2007, so not that silly of a concept. However, I think history won't repeat itself in this case.

[geetface9]

I think it's time Lewis stop sharing his data and setup info with Nico's side of the garage. After all, this is competitive sport with the best man winning. If Lewis is better at identifying the strengths of the car and how to set it up…if he's better at going faster while using less tyre and petrol…if he's winning races under duress or on the trot, he's the best man. And he's not asking for it to be handed to him, he's working for it. Why would you want to have one driver so locked in, putting in the work…leading, and the other just saying, since I can't get any of this quite right, just give me my team-mate's bits and I'll use it to bring results and be a hero? It's like one student totally focusing in class, asking all kinds of questions, doing extra assignments and being totally engaged, studying and then showing up on the big test day just to have the guy next to him who is not completely prepared say "I'll just take your answers for that A, thank you very much."

Can you substantiate this please? If I remember correctly, I thought it was lewis saying he was going to look at nico's data after bahrain.

[racechick]

Nico arrived at Bahrain with a dossier on where Lewis had been faster and how he got the edge at the previous race. Lewis said he would look at Nico's data after that to see where he could exert a new advantage. And he said he would do so every time Nico closed the gap.

[What's Burning?]

Nico is going to become a much better driver having Lewis as a team mate. If they can keep their relationship from crumbling, he may end up being better than most other drivers on the grid because of what he's learned.

No better way to see where you're slow than from seeing someone doing something different that is clearly faster.

[The Second Coming]

Nico arrived at Bahrain with a dossier on where Lewis had been faster and how he got the edge at the previous race. Lewis said he would look at Nico's data after that to see where he could exert a new advantage. And he said he would do so every time Nico closed the gap.

Correct RC…you beat me to it.

Typically, Lewis has never been one to resort to combing thru a team-mates data and setup to try and fix his own issues. It's usually the opposite (memba Heikki and more notably, Jenson?). Lewis made his comments more to amplify what Nico was doing…his dependence, if you will. I submit Lewis would gain little to nothing by trying to learn a whole lot from Nico based on driving styles. Seeing where (sectors/corners) Nico is strong only tells Lewis where there's opportunity during the lap but beyond that, Lewis has proven to be his own man and so far over a career, he's made that name for himself. I'd rather see Nico try his best to beat Lewis (and any other driver) on his own hard work. There is quite a gap between them over a race distance and there's plenty of reasons for that. And while that is the case, both will ensure the Constructors Championship but let them each really earn the WDC based on their own hard work, talent and effort. But that's just me talking…

[The Second Coming]

Oh what. I left for one week and Hammer is gone and cooking is gone?

Who'll claim everything I'm saying is a lie now?

Hammer and Cooking gone? Liar!

They've not left, they're just not in here, look at the facts they're so obvious!

Ugh oh! I fear the pair of them may have gone into witness protection. I can't rule out that possibility cuz I've been there. What exactly do we know about our two most recent new forum members? Hmmm…

[spankyham]

Autosprint.it are reporting that Ferrari has 2 main areas to overcome/catch up to Merc. Firstly, they say the Ferrari turbo is much smaller than the Merc unit and has problems generating constant/full hybrid power. The second problem is that the sidepods are too small, in that they don't provide enough surface area to "work".

Both of those would seem very difficult (but not impossible) to overcome.

[racechick]

Nico arrived at Bahrain with a dossier on where Lewis had been faster and how he got the edge at the previous race. Lewis said he would look at Nico's data after that to see where he could exert a new advantage. And he said he would do so every time Nico closed the gap.

Correct RC…you beat me to it.

Typically, Lewis has never been one to resort to combing thru a team-mates data and setup to try and fix his own issues. It's usually the opposite (memba Heikki and more notably, Jenson?). Lewis made his comments more to amplify what Nico was doing…his dependence, if you will. I submit Lewis would gain little to nothing by trying to learn a whole lot from Nico based on driving styles. Seeing where (sectors/corners) Nico is strong only tells Lewis where there's opportunity during the lap but beyond that, Lewis has proven to be his own man and so far over a career, he's made that name for himself. I'd rather see Nico try his best to beat Lewis (and any other driver) on his own hard work. There is quite a gap between them over a race distance and there's plenty of reasons for that. And while that is the case, both will ensure the Constructors Championship but let them each really earn the WDC based on their own hard work, talent and effort. But that's just me talking…

From my heart, and as a driver supporter before team supporter, I want to see the drivers duking it out, with their own engineers dedicated to them, they find an advantage, they keep it.

But I can see Mercedes point of view here. They have worked hard for this . They want a period of dominance and will leave no stone unturned to get it. They want both championships, and I guess they don't really care which driver. Giving Nico Lewis' data means he will likely bring home more points and that will be essential if the other teams close up.

I think it's tough on Lewis, he always has to share his data like you say, yet still we hear the cries about his inability To develop, to lead, to conserve tyres and fuel, to set the car up. I doubt that will ever go away whatever he does. And he remains vulnerable to DNf's and the double points this year.

Still as I said, I can see Mercs point of view. As I could sharing with Heikki who was new to the team.
Neither situation is the same as the Whitmarsh McLaren years where Button was favoured from the outset and on all fronts to the detriment of Lewis and contributing to two lost championships. That was madness.

So will Lewis findan advantage in Spain. We have to wait and see.

[What's Burning?]

I guess the data sharing makes it artificially close but I don't think Nico is where Button was in the middle of 2012 where he'd gotten so woefully adrift and had to use Hamilton's set up just to get his bearings again.

Nico came out on top of Schumacher for three seasons so he's his own guy and has a solid base. The setup will help more in qualifying for sure. What car setup CAN'T do however is make you intuitively faster during race day and I suspect we'll see more races where Lewis runs off than races like Bahrain.

EDIT: just did some... math.

Lewis would have to DNF 4 times, (one of which being the final race) and Nico come in 2nd place every time Lewis wins plus win every race that Lewis DNFs in order for the score at the end of the season be;

375 Lewis
374 Nico

I don't think the double points thing is going to come into place since statistically Nico is bound to have some type of car issue leading to a DNF, after all (it's only Mercedes not Marussia ) So to win, Lewis would have to DNF four times, not finish 1st at least one time, and Nico would have to be flawless for the season with only 1st and 2nd place finishes for Nico to win the WDC.

[cheekybru]

OK, so as we approach what many consider a pivotal part of the season, the Spanish GP, I can't help but reflect on our very recent past. At the very sharp end, we have a pair of team-mates in a persistent state of lovey-doveyness (yes, making up words as I go)..Lewis and Nico…and I understand the work and results from two drivers pushing the team forward but, enough! I think it's time Lewis stop sharing his data and setup info with Nico's side of the garage. After all, this is competitive sport with the best man winning. If Lewis is better at identifying the strengths of the car and how to set it up…if he's better at going faster while using less tyre and petrol…if he's winning races under duress or on the trot, he's the best man. And he's not asking for it to be handed to him, he's working for it. Why would you want to have one driver so locked in, putting in the work…leading, and the other just saying, since I can't get any of this quite right, just give me my team-mate's bits and I'll use it to bring results and be a hero? It's like one student totally focusing in class, asking all kinds of questions, doing extra assignments and being totally engaged, studying and then showing up on the big test day just to have the guy next to him who is not completely prepared say "I'll just take your answers for that A, thank you very much."

Goes without saying that I don't subscribe to the theory that it takes both drivers in concert to push the team forward if they are both already good and the car is good. Look back to the Michael/Rubens, Sebastien/Mark era. You can have one dominant driver and bring home both Championships. I think at this point of the Championship where it has been established that the season's race will be between the Mercedes-AMG pair, it should be a pure fight…all about ability, knowledge and your individual effort. It is my view that Lewis should be allowed to hold his cards close to the vest and skin them when they matter most. If Nico is as good as he believes, let him prove it…do his own work and truly earn the WDC.

I'm very curious what you lot think of all this.

Are we having fun yet?

I completely agree with you but Merc have stated that Info sharing will continue, And it will help them keep ahead of the chasing pack I presume.

Hopefully WCC is secured nice and early and the WDC is at the point where its gotta be Lewis or Nico for the last 5-6 races, and Merc can just cancel info sharing and let them go for it

[LiamCatterson]

Yeah I wouldn't mind if someone else but Vettel won, but I would mind if the title was wrapped up early. As much as a Ferrari fan I am, back in 2002, I didn't really admire that the title was wrapped up mid-way through the season. Like it was great for the Tifosi, but it kinda took the element of anticipation out...I think thats what made 2003 a good year really.

[The Second Coming]

I guess the data sharing makes it artificially close but I don't think Nico is where Button was in the middle of 2012 where he'd gotten so woefully adrift and had to use Hamilton's set up just to get his bearings again.

Nico came out on top of Schumacher for three seasons so he's his own guy and has a solid base. The setup will help more in qualifying for sure. What car setup CAN'T do however is make you intuitively faster during race day and I suspect we'll see more races where Lewis runs off than races like Bahrain.

EDIT: just did some... math.

Lewis would have to DNF 4 times, (one of which being the final race) and Nico come in 2nd place every time Lewis wins plus win every race that Lewis DNFs in order for the score at the end of the season be;

375 Lewis
374 Nico

I don't think the double points thing is going to come into place since statistically Nico is bound to have some type of car issue leading to a DNF, after all (it's only Mercedes not Marussia ) So to win, Lewis would have to DNF four times, not finish 1st at least one time, and Nico would have to be flawless for the season with only 1st and 2nd place finishes for Nico to win the WDC.

What's Burning, as a chap who has always hated math since primary school, I like your math a lot but lets not have it come to that (Lewis having that many DNFs). I could really live with a year or two of Lewis not having the constant series of bad luck that cheats him of clear race wins and Championships. He had one to kick off the year…lets have that be the only one this year so he can get on with it.

RC and Cheeky, I hear ya. I know the value of sharing to ensure the team stays well ahead of the rest but with that being an absolute, the drivers should still be rewarded for their preparation (training, studying the car an what it's best at, setups, etc.) and what they bring on the days of qualifying and race. Assuming nothing else matters, I'm just not a fan of a guy wanting to beat me and me having to work hard, sort things out and then simply hand over everything I've got to help him beat me. Something about that smells very 10-day-old-dead-carcass-on-a-hot-Summers-day bad to me. But I get it. Team first…but lets see what happens later when the WCC is a foregone conclusion.

OK, yes, I'm having fun!

[cheekybru]

I guess the data sharing makes it artificially close but I don't think Nico is where Button was in the middle of 2012 where he'd gotten so woefully adrift and had to use Hamilton's set up just to get his bearings again.

Nico came out on top of Schumacher for three seasons so he's his own guy and has a solid base. The setup will help more in qualifying for sure. What car setup CAN'T do however is make you intuitively faster during race day and I suspect we'll see more races where Lewis runs off than races like Bahrain.

EDIT: just did some... math.

Lewis would have to DNF 4 times, (one of which being the final race) and Nico come in 2nd place every time Lewis wins plus win every race that Lewis DNFs in order for the score at the end of the season be;

375 Lewis
374 Nico

I don't think the double points thing is going to come into place since statistically Nico is bound to have some type of car issue leading to a DNF, after all (it's only Mercedes not Marussia ) So to win, Lewis would have to DNF four times, not finish 1st at least one time, and Nico would have to be flawless for the season with only 1st and 2nd place finishes for Nico to win the WDC.

What's Burning, as a chap who has always hated math since primary school, I like your math a lot but lets not have it come to that (Lewis having that many DNFs). I could really live with a year or two of Lewis not having the constant series of bad luck that cheats him of clear race wins and Championships. He had one to kick off the year…lets have that be the only one this year so he can get on with it.

RC and Cheeky, I hear ya. I know the value of sharing to ensure the team stays well ahead of the rest but with that being an absolute, the drivers should still be rewarded for their preparation (training, studying the car an what it's best at, setups, etc.) and what they bring on the days of qualifying and race. Assuming nothing else matters, I'm just not a fan of a guy wanting to beat me and me having to work hard, sort things out and then simply hand over everything I've got to help him beat me. Something about that smells very 10-day-old-dead-carcass-on-a-hot-Summers-day bad to me. But I get it. Team first…but lets see what happens later when the WCC is a foregone conclusion.

OK, yes, I'm having fun!

4 days to go

[Roth]

Expecting great things from Seb this weekend now his chassis's been 'fixed'. Lots of poor luck with chassis, always cropping up like that when he's getting a shellacking. Wonder how long before it end up on Ricciardo's car.