FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[Jabberwocky]

is it a double negative?

[What's Burning?]

Susie got a little uglier.

ESPNF1 Red Bull, which has until Thursday midday to lodge an appeal against Daniel Ricciardo's disqualification in Melbourne, appears isolated in its protests against the FIA's fuel-sensoring equipment.

At the core of Red Bull's protests are claims the equipment is unreliable. However, its position has been weakened by support given to the FIA by rivals Mercedes and Ferrari.

Under FIA rules, teams cannot replace approved FIA equipment with their own, which is what Red Bull did. So while 21 cars, including Ricciardo's team-mate Sebastain Vettel, worked with the FIA system, Red Bull chose to use their own monitoring on Ricciardo.

Stefano Domenicali, the Ferrari team principal, said: "We need to rely on the fact that it is a situation that is well managed by the FIA. We have the FIA that will do their job and I am sure there will not be a problem at all."

That position was almost immediately supported by Mercedes' Toto Wolff. "The FIA is obviously controlling fuel flow and checking with all the teams, and it is a question of learning by doing it between the FIA and the teams," he said. "The fuel-flow meter is an FIA system and this needs to be integrated in the cars. This is a learning process where the teams support the FIA and vice versa."

And the meter's manufacturers, Gill Sensors, have issued a statement saying the FIA has provided it with "positive feedback" after the race "confirming their confidence in the development and stating the meters meet the FIA's accuracy specification".

[racechick]

So they only put in on Ricciardo's car! that's like saying,' this might be illegal but we think it's a good idea! But we won't risk Seb! Well karma on you Mr. Horner......or whoever decided Ricciardo would be the sacrificial lamb.

Just such a shame for Ricciardo! Very cruel.

[What's Burning?]

It's possible they did put it on Seb's car as well, but because of his PU problems he may not have approached the flagrant use. That or they just didn't bother to check his car since there were no points to take away to begin with.

[stonemonkey]

I didn't think it was anything they put on the car, it was just a different way they measured the fuel flow, the FIA device is in the fuel tank whereas RBR were taking readings from the injectors to calculate fuel flow and that's how they claimed the FIA device was innacurate and so they stuck with using the readings from the injectors even though they were warned not to do it that way after qualifying and in the race.

[sagi58]

Paul Stoddart seems to believe that Red Bull will win its appeal:

 wrote:">Daniel Ricciardo and Red Bull will win appeal against Australian GP disqualification, says former F1 team owner Paul Stoddart

...Stoddart, who ran the Minardi team for five years before selling it to Red Bull in 2005, reckons the UK-based outfit has a strong case.

He said the point of the new rule, one of many introduced this season, was to stop drivers from using an extra boost of fuel during the race to gain an advantage.

“Daniel did not gain any advantage and that will be proven by Red Bull in their appeal,’’ Stoddart told 3AW radio in Melbourne.

“They’ll be able to prove that he didn’t gain an advantage, that the team felt what they did was right, that they were following their own sensor from the actual fuel injection system on the engine.

“And the Renault engineers would’ve known exactly how much fuel was going into that engine.

“We’re talking teams with budgets of $400-$500 million here - they have far better equipment than the FIA.’’...

[racechick]

But even if the red Bull measuring device was more accurate and even if they gained no advantage, the rule says they have to use the FIA one, and despite being asked several times, they chose not to.
Maybe if teams are left to do there own measuring there would be scope for cheating, so that's why the FIA asked them to use their one.

Just speculating because I don't fully understand what it's all about. I don't know why they can't just let them have their 100( whatever it is) of fuel and do what they want with it.

[What's Burning?]

The FiA have the fuel sensor in place for a reason, otherwise why have it? The FiA asked teams to turn the flow down, and Mercedes voluntarily did so, in order to not go against the FiA's specific rule. We don't care what your sensors says FiA, because our information is accurate and yours is not is not the point. Everyone uses the same sensor and is measured the same way. Red Bull exceeded that.

If they are overruled on this, then the ENTIRE fuel flow becomes null and void because there will be 11 different ways to measure the flow from 11 different teams and that's not what the rule specified.

[LRW]

They will not win the appeal. I'd put money on it.

Did they brake the rules - yes.
Were they given a chance to rectify it mid-race? - yes.
Did they rectify it ? No.
Did they gain an advantage? - irrelevant - they still broke the rules.

[racechick]

Yes,that's what I think. Rules are rules, even if they're stupid ones. And breaking them is the offence irrelevant of whether an advantage is gained from breaking them.

[CookinFlat6]

On the one side you have RBR supported by the guy whose team they now own, and on the other side you have Merc, Ferrari and the FIA

ESPN state categorically that RBR only used their own measurements on Riccs car. They must have some proof. By only using it on one car damages the argument that RBR were felt their system more accurate etc

I cannot see RBR winning this and forcing the FIA to overturn the result twice without creating another farce of biblical porportions. How can RBR beat FIA and a majority of engine makers on this when one of them already urged the FIA to be vigilant to this exact eventuality

Never gonna happen, its just RBR trying an orderly retreat and trying to save face

[stonemonkey]

I don't think they'll be successful in the appeal, I feel it might be more a case of RBR wanting to show up the inaccuracies of the sensors and wanting something done about that.

[What's Burning?]

I think it's more of a desperate attempt from RBR not to be fighting for 5th in the constructors championship this season.

[CookinFlat6]

The inaccuracies are the same for everyone. The sensor was produced in collaboration with all the teams and allows measurements for each car on a common scale.

This is an example of RBR yet again getting caught with their hand in the cookie jar and this time not being able to get away with it due to a change in regs and big investment by the engine makers

[stonemonkey]

It's just the fact that they're appealing makes me think that they must be able to prove or demonstrate that they were within the limits, they'd look pretty stupid otherwise, if they can do that then the FIA would have to acknowledge that and in doing so would be accepting there's an issue with the sensor(s) that needs addressing.