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[Hammer278]

He had one drive I recall which was highly impressive, Spa... the year Hamilton and Alonso got wiped out by Grosjean at the start. If he has a tough car to handle this year and puts in quite a few of those drives again, it could do a hell of a lot of good for his on track reputation, way more than those 9 consecutive victories could ever do.

[Jabberwocky]

1961 2.5-1.5 Ferrari
1966 1.5-3.0 Brabham (hired repco as inhouse exclusive engine builder)
1989 Turbos banned - McLaren - Honda exclusive works team
1995 - Benetton Renault - (Benetton whlist not an official works team eventually became the Renault works team)
2006 - 3.0 - 2.4 - Renault (the top 6 teams were Manufacturers or exclusive works, the bottom of table ALL customers)

So out of 5 instances of engine change, 1 was not a strict manufacturer or exclusive works team, although it became so a few years later

Your earlier stats are completely meaningless in this context

So now you are saying that 2 company's can work as 1?

Sent using NCC-1701

[CookinFlat6]

there are 2 different groups of guys/gals who build engines and who build cars
sometimes these 2 groups work exclusively together - they literally merge under the same project, motives and ownership
When they work together exclusively on one car project its either because they are owned by the same entity (like HPE and Merc AMG - Daimler) or as a WORKS team (HPE and Mclaren)
The other situation is where the engine group supply a product for paying customers (HPE and Williams)

WORKS team means the inhouse racing team of the factory (like works football team, works canteen etc, its exclusively for the tooling works or factory)
It is better when the engine group and the car group work together as one under the same (methaphoric) roof with a common aim

A works team is the same as a manufacturer team, the only difference is in the ownership structure

McLaren were 40% owned by Daimler and was a WORKS team
Merc AMG are 60 % owned by Daimler and are a manufacturers WORKS team

RBR are not connected with Renault by ownership and are a CUSTOMER (the clue is Renault have other teams same as RBR, RBR did not exclusively integrate with the engine boys)

[Jabberwocky]

1961 2.5-1.5 Ferrari
1966 1.5-3.0 Brabham (hired repco as inhouse exclusive engine builder)
1989 Turbos banned - McLaren - Honda exclusive works team
1995 - Benetton Renault - (Benetton whlist not an official works team eventually became the Renault works team)
2006 - 3.0 - 2.4 - Renault (the top 6 teams were Manufacturers or exclusive works, the bottom of table ALL customers)

So out of 5 instances of engine change, 1 was not a strict manufacturer or exclusive works team, although it became so a few years later

Your earlier stats are completely meaningless in this context

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/173061/1/r ... orner.html

[CookinFlat6]

Yes Jabber! http://www.forumula1.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=13241&start=15

Horner thought they were an integrated exclusive WORKS team

but

the reality is

Caterham got delivered an engine first

and

Renault did not listen or give a s*** about Red Bulls specific requirements

resulting in

THE ENGINE DOES NOT WORK IN THE CAR

an integrated engine/chassis development (WORKS style) would have meant the 2 built together

like Merc

and

Ferrari

[CookinFlat6]

This is from the Renault Engine team prospectus

‘‘The Power Unit is therefore much more integrated and central to
design, for example the turbo overlaps the gearbox so it intrudes into the
space where there was a clutch or a suspension part. The energy store
is also much larger, which has an impact on chassis length, fuel volume
and radiator position, amongst other items.
‘‘Since the first days of the turbo units in the 1970s, Renault’s philosophy
has always been to facilitate chassis integration, so at a very early stage
we had regular video chats, conference calls and site visits to our teams,
particularly Red Bull Racing, our development partners, to decide the
direction and key milestones so designs on chassis and engine could
be synchronized.
‘‘A lot of topics ended up with question marks so Red Bull and Renault
had to jointly decide the best course of action together. This is where the
transparency with which we worked paid dividends. This is actually the
benefit of being an engine supplier rather than a team owner: we can
have access to a range of solutions and find a common path for each.
‘‘We also worked closely with our other teams, which is a risk but also
an opportunity – everyone gets the benefit of the input as the greater the
overall improvement to the Power Unit, the greater performance gains.
If we differentiate between specs we have to design, validate and sign
off multiple specifications of engines rather than consolidating the best
ideas.
‘‘We recognize that the teams are fighting each other so we need to
support their specific requirements. Our role is to arbitrate and that each
team gets the best possible service from Renault Sport F1. Since our
start in the sport, our overall objective has been to make sure that a
Renault powered car is the fastest car. This aim has always been part of
our DNA, and will give an even greater return on investment in 2014.’’

Read between the lines, Renault are talking about making an engine that fits with requirements of ALL their customer teams

Horner thinks RBR are like McLaren Honda or Williams BMW or Merc or Ferrari

Ask yourself this - do you think Horners article fits in with the outcome at Jerez? Do you think what Horner said was how it happened?

Yes or no?

[Hammer278]

You don't even need to read between the lines, the last line says it all

"Since our start in the sport, our overall objective has been to make sure that a Renault powered car is the fastest car. This aim has always been part of our DNA, and will give an even greater return on investment in 2014."

If Caterham wins the trophies this year and Redbull ends up without a race win, it will still be considered an equal success in Renault's POV to 2013. Nothing more to be said.

[geetface9]

Is there a possibility that RBR went for a "better" design (per se) than caterham and it proved to not work in jerez? Maybe we're reading too much into this? I know with the reintroduction with KERS, RBR had significant issues with it because newey's designs were so tight and compact. Could this be a bit of the same?

[RyRy]

All 8 votes so far say yes, ouch poor Vet haha

[LiamCatterson]

Will it end at 4? I hope so. I heard that 10% of audience for F1 dropped because of the Vettel domination and this will further if this continues. Not only that, but I'd do anything to see another World Champion, not Vettel. Hell, even if it's Max Chilton But yeah, I am sure Vettel's reign ends this year. I know Jerez doesn't tell a lot but Red Bull have done 20 laps in the whole weekend...That is NOT a good sign

[RyRy]

Will it end at 4? I hope so. I heard that 10% of audience for F1 dropped because of the Vettel domination and this will further if this continues. Not only that, but I'd do anything to see another World Champion, not Vettel. Hell, even if it's Max Chilton But yeah, I am sure Vettel's reign ends this year. I know Jerez doesn't tell a lot but Red Bull have done 20 laps in the whole weekend...That is NOT a good sign

Yeah they lost 50 million viewers over his domination. I'd like to see a new WC each year, it would be fun to watch

[CookinFlat6]

For me the best sign is that we have not had a single post from a Seb/RBR fan
Where are they gone?

A few months ago they would be on here screaming and abusing everyone

Filthy dirty, shocking, disgraceful, immoral twisters of the gospel.

But not a peep on any forum, all the roving morality patrols and flying Seb tribunals, all silent?

Perhaps they are waiting for Newey and Seb to show their genius by beating Caterham in Aus

Or perhaps they have become Merc supporters

[Hammer278]

I always wondered what the % of total Redbull fans had actually supported the team when they were Jaguar....

I liked Redbull as soon as they took over Jaguar since they let DC have a few more years in F1 but once DC left, there was no reason to support them. And then they started kicking a$$.

But that's the way of the world...80/20 pareto rule, maybe it doesn't just apply to the wealth distribution paradigm, but also to the fan base as well....always 20% loyal supporters, 80% band-wagoners. Case in point, look at Manchester United's profits (jerseys sold mainly), from 1st in BPL to 3rd this year after just 1 quarter of the year.

[1Lemon]

Will it end at 4? I hope so. I heard that 10% of audience for F1 dropped because of the Vettel domination and this will further if this continues. Not only that, but I'd do anything to see another World Champion, not Vettel. Hell, even if it's Max Chilton But yeah, I am sure Vettel's reign ends this year. I know Jerez doesn't tell a lot but Red Bull have done 20 laps in the whole weekend...That is NOT a good sign

I so want Marussia to suddenly have a WDC competing car, that would be incredible!

Mind you with Max's constancy that might be the case!

[spankyham]

For me the best sign is that we have not had a single post from a Seb/RBR fan
Where are they gone?

A good question. Another good question might be are we better off without the diversity fans of other teams fans? And yet another good question might be what can we do to make people with different views feel welcome, even when we disagree with them?