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[sagi58]

I agree they don't need to be substantiated, but when you're willing to argue for them then they're no longer an opinion and the argument has to have a foundational basis...
...But like I said, you're free to have as many opinions as you want, it's what makes forums a riot.

Unfortunately, I don't have enough time to sit and google all the times we've heard about why Hamilton didn't win a race.
However, if I provide comic relief, I'm happy to do so, since some fans take themselves much too seriously!

[sagi58]

I remember the Italian media saying the same when Alonso arrived.

Yup... but, without a competitive car, the Tifosi recognize Alonso's efforts!
Unfortunately, with Hamilton it's always been one rationalization after
another and many end up back at the old bias "against" him comments!

Are you trying to convince yourself or others about this?

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, because I believe each of us has the ability to form an opinion.
Each of us has their own mind set and each of us has their own schema within which we form those opinions.

There is no reason why my opinion should be any more important than yours and vice versa.

[What's Burning?]

I agree they don't need to be substantiated, but when you're willing to argue for them then they're no longer an opinion and the argument has to have a foundational basis...
...But like I said, you're free to have as many opinions as you want, it's what makes forums a riot.

Unfortunately, I don't have enough time to sit and google all the times we've heard about why Hamilton didn't win a race.
However, if I provide comic relief, I'm happy to do so, since some fans take themselves much too seriously!

Excellent, it seems as if we're in agreement that an opinion without foundational basis can't be taken seriously. You know around these parts, we're allowed to our own opinions but we're certainly not allowed to our own facts.

Anything we do to prevent the four and five page arguments about who's opinion is more opinionated is good by me.

I remember the Italian media saying the same when Alonso arrived.

Yup... but, without a competitive car, the Tifosi recognize Alonso's efforts!
Unfortunately, with Hamilton it's always been one rationalization after
another and many end up back at the old bias "against" him comments!

So back to my original comment, now I know you were just being funny and it wasn't to be taken seriously and that you do think that the Italian media was doing the very same thing you were accusing the British media of doing with Hamilton. Got it.

[operaman]

Through F1 history, certain drivers have acquired a cult following and popularity that has transcended any team. There can be no dispute about this. It may be a team sport but the facts are that the sportsmen - the drivers are the focal point for the majority.
For example the WDC title was around long beofre the WCC was introduced as a way of regonising and rewarding team effort. Even now most followers are more interested in the WDC chase than the WCC

If anything I think the driver popularity numbers are distorted for Ferrari drivers uniquely. i.e. Ferrari is such a powerful brand and has its own cult following that any driver who goes there immediately becomes a lot more popular. Therefore alonsos popularity is hugely based on Ferraris following

Whereas Lewis' following will be 'purer' We know for a fact that his entry in 2007 led to a reversqal of declining viewing numbers and was followed by a wider global reach as well as wider sponsor appeal.
We also know that when he left McLaren and joined Merc, there was a big transfer of support to Merc.

IMHO, one could say Ferrari make Alonso more popular but Lewis makes Merc more popular

This can be confirmed by looking at the last ranking of the marketeability of global sportsmen. Lewis was higher than Alonso. I.e according to the experts Lewis will sell more product i.e has more followers/more appeal globally

Sure, whatever. I agree Ferrari certainly would be a boost to Alonso's followers, but how many of Lewis' followers are there simply waiting for him to say something stupid, discuss his relationship woes, or better yet reveal Mercedes' plans?

[operaman]

So where is Vettel?

Apparently Vettel and Kimi don't "tweet"!

Here's the site I used: F1 Twitter directory

Tells me everything I need to know.

[CookinFlat6]

Sure, whatever. I agree Ferrari certainly would be a boost to Alonso's followers, but how many of Lewis' followers are there simply waiting for him to say something stupid, discuss his relationship woes, or better yet reveal Mercedes' plans?

I don't believe the reason fans follow a driver is the debate here. Thats a completely separate concept worthy of its own thread, assuming you were being serious ofcourse
But in the interests of humoring you if needed then I would like to point you to the complex nature of following sportsmen. Going back to gladiators in Roman times, many followers wanted to see blood, wanted to see fallibility, wanted to see human weaknesses from the otherwise great.
Lots of followers and fans gravitate to a sportsman because they want to see the elements that make for a great human being, mistakes, errors and ofcourse the recovery from said events

So does a superstar sportsman have followers who are there to hear him say something honest, discuss his relationship with a superstar singer, or reveal the hidden deficiencies of his team with impunity? Does the pope ever pray, do you reckon? Are Lewis haters the first ones to click on Lewis news?

[sagi58]

...it seems as if we're in agreement that an opinion without foundational basis can't be taken seriously. You know around these parts, we're allowed to our own opinions but we're certainly not allowed to our own facts.

Anything we do to prevent the four and five page arguments about who's opinion is more opinionated is good by me.

IF the opinion is subjective, there is no need to argue with facts.
Nor is there any need to turn every comment into a thesis/debate.
Who says we need to agree or that it's necessary to reach unanimous
on every topic/thread consensus?

[CookinFlat6]

...it seems as if we're in agreement that an opinion without foundational basis can't be taken seriously. You know around these parts, we're allowed to our own opinions but we're certainly not allowed to our own facts.

Anything we do to prevent the four and five page arguments about who's opinion is more opinionated is good by me.

IF the opinion is subjective, there is no need to argue with facts.
Nor is there any need to turn every comment into a thesis/debate.
Who says we need to agree or that it's necessary to reach unanimous
on every topic/thread consensus?

You are wrong about what you said. I have no evidence or facts, I just think you are wrong and so I will keep objecting if you continue.

(See what I did there?)

[Jabberwocky]

So where is Vettel?

Apparently Vettel and Kimi don't "tweet"!

Here's the site I used: F1 Twitter directory

Does that mean they have no fans lol

[operaman]

Sure, whatever. I agree Ferrari certainly would be a boost to Alonso's followers, but how many of Lewis' followers are there simply waiting for him to say something stupid, discuss his relationship woes, or better yet reveal Mercedes' plans?

I don't believe the reason fans follow a driver is the debate here. Thats a completely separate concept worthy of its own thread, assuming you were being serious ofcourse
But in the interests of humoring you if needed then I would like to point you to the complex nature of following sportsmen. Going back to gladiators in Roman times, many followers wanted to see blood, wanted to see fallibility, wanted to see human weaknesses from the otherwise great.
Lots of followers and fans gravitate to a sportsman because they want to see the elements that make for a great human being, mistakes, errors and ofcourse the recovery from said events

So does a superstar sportsman have followers who are there to hear him say something honest, discuss his relationship with a superstar singer, or reveal the hidden deficiencies of his team with impunity? Does the pope ever pray, do you reckon? Are Lewis haters the first ones to click on Lewis news?

Spare me the BS, you simply don't know do you?

[CookinFlat6]

Spare me the BS, you simply don't know do you?

I dont know how many Lewis followers blah blah blah, twitter telemetry blah blah blah, relationship blah blah blah and neither do you. I do know though that he is a bigger global star in marketeability terms than Alonso and others

The World’s Ten Most Marketable Athletes 2013
1) Neymar – soccer, Brazil
2) Lionel Messi – soccer, Argentina
3) Rory McIlroy – golf, UK
4) Robert Griffin III – football, USA
5) Usain Bolt – athletics, Jamaica
6) Novak Djokovic – tennis, Serbia
7) Lewis Hamilton – motorsport, UK
Cristiano Ronaldo – soccer, Portugal
9) Sloane Stephens – tennis, USA
10) Blake Griffin – basketball, USA

http://www.sportspromedia.com/press_releases/neymar_retains_position_as_worlds_most_marketable_athlete

What do you have?

[What's Burning?]

What good is a fact when countered with a strong opinion?

[1Lemon]

portsPro’s annual 50 Most Marketable Athletes list

So how exactly do we know these statistics are only and purely only generated by stats and no opinions sneaked in?

[CookinFlat6]

portsPro’s annual 50 Most Marketable Athletes list

So how exactly do we know these statistics are only and purely only generated by stats and no opinions sneaked in?

All we know is that the worlds media and advertisers take these numbers seriously, and unless anyone comes up with a better list or ranking method with credibility (try Google search) ......, then it would be childish to base further discussions on our own assumptions or desires

If you bother to read the link I provided you will find the criteria. In case you are energetically challenged here you go

Criteria

Athletes from across the world have been ranked according to their marketing potential over a three-year period from this summer.

Value for money
Age
Home market
Charisma
Willingness
Crossover appeal

[1Lemon]

portsPro’s annual 50 Most Marketable Athletes list

So how exactly do we know these statistics are only and purely only generated by stats and no opinions sneaked in?

All we know is that the worlds media and advertisers take these numbers seriously, and unless anyone comes up with a better list or ranking method with credibility (try Google search) ......, then it would be childish to base further discussions on our own assumptions or desires

If you bother to read the link I provided you will find the criteria. In case you are energetically challenged here you go

Criteria

Athletes from across the world have been ranked according to their marketing potential over a three-year period from this summer.

Value for money
Age
Home market
Charisma
Willingness
Crossover appeal

Oh of course I always have an accurate percentage count of someone's charisma abs willingness...

Also there's no need to belittle someone and be sarcastic, sorry I don't have all the time in the world to read all media you post on here...