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[operaman]

If I was Ron, I would get a young hungry guy in, like Eric Boiller and manage him closely. Failing that promote someone in the team now and still make all the major decisions himself.
With a guy like Ron involved the TP doesnt have to be a proven TP, he can be an energetic 'trainee' doing all the work at Rons more withdrawn commands

A bit like Domenically at Ferrari. Almost anyone plus Ron is way better than keeping the 3 ducks.

If Ron is smart he will hire the best person available.

[CookinFlat6]

Showtime Sagi58, take your time do it right

You obviously have more time than I do!!

LONG story short, your statistics are true, no doubt about it.
That is NOT what my point is!! My point is that the statistics
you presented are not "scientifically" rounded in that you don't
take into consideration a cross-section of the F1 audience.
Twitter is geared towards a certain segment and that segment,
is not necessarily representative of all F1 fans.

Clearer now?

I still see no evidence of Lewis not being more popular than a team. It would be refreshing if you could provide evidence that apart from twitter, more of everyone else follow a team more than they follow a star driver such as Lewis
Please 'scientifically' round off my statistics and take into consideration the whole F1 audience that is representative of all F1 fans

Otherwise can I assume this is just 'what you think' and therefore I should shut up because its not what you think

[Jabberwocky]

Has anyone got any stats on merchandise sales? Just a thought

Sent using NCC-1701

[zurich_allan]

I'm not implying anything at all, but a quick scan of relatively recent official figures from a FOTA survey in 2010 were as follows:

They are fairly predictable, with Ferrari coming out on top with 30% of the support, well ahead of McLaren on 19% and Mercedes on 10%. 22% of fans said that they had no particular favourite team.

On the driver side, Michael Schumacher has not lost his fan base and he tops the poll with 19.5%, ahead of Fernando Alonso on 9.7%, Kimi Raikkonen on 7.2%, Felipe Massa on 6.1% and Lewis Hamilton on 6%. Again it was notable that 30% of fans had no favourite driver. Meanwhile poor old Jenson Button had just 2.6% of the votes.

It shows how hard it is to build a strong fan base in F1 unless, like Robert Kubica (4.3%) you are the only representative of your country. Alonso has been at it now for seven years and yet he has less than half of Schumacher’s fans.

Elsewhere there was a slight bias towards continuing on the classic tracks, but not as much as you might expect, only 51%, while Monaco, Italy and Britain were the three races most fans wanted to see kept on the calendar.

One of the more striking stats was that 43% of fans would like to see KERS re-introduced. This survey was done before the first Grand Prix in Bahrain, where a few KERS induced passes would have been welcome.

In all, 84,000 fans were surveyed in 174 countries. F1 Racing did a similar survey with ING a couple of years ago and the FIA did two surveys sponsored by AMD. It remains to be seen what actions will be taken as a result of the survey, but it is positive in that it shows FOTA taking some steps to understand F1′s fanbase better.

Source: http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/03/ferrari-tops-poll-as-fans-favourite/

Now I would assume that the F1 fanbase hasn't changed that much since 2010, and as this was an official survey carried out with the support of multiple partners (FOTA, LG, F1 Racing). In addition, they will have had proper research methods employed to analyse the data, so it's pretty likely to be both representative and accurate(ish) in terms of a sample. Going by what it says here, Lewis isn't (wasn't) even any more popular than Alonso, Kimi or Massa (!) on a Global level, so I would HIGHLY doubt it's even arguable that he's more popular than, for example, the Ferrari team as a whole...

I can look into this in a bit more detail, being a researcher and all, but I don't think the chips are going to fall on the side of the driver - just a gut feeling, but I don't think it would be wrong.

[CookinFlat6]

I'm not implying anything at all, but a quick scan of relatively recent official figures from a FOTA survey in 2010 were as follows:

Dont be modest, welcome to the debate, stay around and allow us to 'rough up' your case!

Ok this poll taken in 2010 asks fans about their fave teams and then asks fans about their fave drivers

And how does that tell us if more fans follow a driver than follow a team? 30% saying they like Ferrari (and 22% saying they dont follow a team) is in what way related to the 19.5% who support MS.

You gonna have to work with me a bit here buddy. For example do you think some of those fans follow teams and drivers?

Also this is an interesting snippet from your post considering it was 4 years ago and social media was less evolved

F1 fans are more of a community now than they have ever been with internet and social media making it possible for them to get their voices heard. Some action needs to come out of these surveys if fans are to continue to take them seriously in future. There is no point in having the same one sided conversation all the time.

Your Poll concludes that social media allows more fans to be heard about their preferences and should be taken more seriously than 'these surveys'?



So you are saying a 4 year poll that says Ferrari is the fave team and MS is the fave driver suggests that Lewis is not as well followed as Ferrari?
Does your gut feeling say that Lewis is more popular than Marrussia?

I am glad you have joined this debate as you are a researcher which means you should be able to come up with some proper stats and a sound argument fairly quickly.

Remember that the debate motion is If Lewis Hamilton is bigger than an F1 team in terms of followers and fans or if this is a delusion

In the meantime here are some social media hits numbers from 2013

Drivers
1,891,994 – Fernando Alonso (Ferrari)
1,831,006 – Lewis Hamilton (Mercedes)
1,636,514 – Jenson Button (McLaren)
584,433 – Pastor Maldonaldo (Williams / Lotus)
551,944 – Sergio Perez (McLaren / Force India)
478,701 – Felipe Massa (Ferrari / Williams)
439,039 – Nico Rosberg (Mercedes)
310,239 – Paul di Resta (Force India / TBC)
270,944 – Heikki Kovalainen (Lotus / TBC)
223,482 – Nico Hulkenberg (Sauber / Force India)
221,792 – Romain Grosjean (Lotus)
155,915 – Daniel Ricciardo (Toro Rosso / Red Bull)
151,631 – Charles Pic (Caterham / TBC)
106,858 – Jean-Eric Vergne (Toro Rosso)
101,358 – Esteban Gutierrez (Sauber)
76,501 – Max Chilton (Marussia / TBC)
73,464 – Jules Bianchi (Marussia)
65,796 – Giedo van der Garde (Caterham / TBC)
49,916 – Valtteri Bottas (Williams)
15,257 – Adrian Sutil (Force India / Sauber)
10,734 – Daniil Kvyat (N/A / Toro Rosso)
…..
856,151 – Mark Webber (2013 – last race)
620,460 – Bruno Senna (2012 – last race)
296,753 – Pedro de la Rosa (2012 – last race)
225,757 – Narain Karthikeyan (2012 – last race)
135,690 – Timo Glock (2012 – last race)
125,480 – Kamui Kobayashi (2012 – last race)
124,937 – Vitaly Petrov (2012 – last race)

Drivers – Increases
01 – 539,568 – Lewis Hamilton (up 1)
02 – 487,572 – Fernando Alonso (down 1)
03 – 343,511 – Jenson Button (n/a)
04 – 267,614 – Pastor Maldonaldo (up 3)
05 – 236,015 – Felipe Massa (up 1)
Average driver = 213,625
06 – 210,320 – Nico Rosberg (up 6)
07 – 183,786 – Sergio Perez (down 3)
08 – 128,080 – Paul di Resta (up 7)
09 – 125,459 – Charles Pic (up 12)
10 – 120,527 – Romain Grosjean (up 4)
11 – 119,481 – Nico Hulkenberg (up 6)
12 – 97,722 – Daniel Ricciardo (up 4)
13 – 65,952 – Heikki Kovalainen (down 3)
14 – 65,346 – Jean-Eric Vergne (up 6)
…..
337,919 – Mark Webber
85,990 – Pedro de la Rosa
85,212 – Bruno Senna
60,153 – Narain Karthikeyan
41,772 – Timo Glock
23,443 – Kamui Kobayashi
8,137 – Vitaly Petrov

Teams
677,460 – Ferrari
485,166 – McLaren
407,249 – Red Bull
363,365 – Mercedes
350,777 – Lotus
191,281 – Williams
175,082 – Sauber
172,720 – Force India
165,281 – Marussia
161,140 – Caterham
120,703 – Toro Rosso
62,880 – HRT

Teams – Increases
01 – 275,153 – Ferrari (n/a)
02 – 206,895 – McLaren (up 1)
03 – 198,429 – Red Bull (down 1)
04 – 190,931 – Mercedes (up 2)
05 – 181,635 – Lotus (down 1)
Average team = 124,764
06 – 103,409 – Williams (down 1)
07 – 79,506 – Sauber (up 2)
08 – 76,358 – Force India (n/a)
09 – 68,644 – Marussia (down 2)
10 – 64,650 – Caterham (n/a)
11 – 60,739 – Toro Rosso (n/a)
12 – -9,176 – HRT (n/a)

And just to remind you again of what those that conducted your survey in 2010 said about fans taking the survey seriously and the role of social media

F1 fans are more of a community now than they have ever been with internet and social media making it possible for them to get their voices heard. Some action needs to come out of these surveys if fans are to continue to take them seriously in future. There is no point in having the same one sided conversation all the time.

[acosmichippo]

I still see no evidence of Lewis not being more popular than a team.

Just one example? Ferrari. Tifosi are Ferrari fans first and foremost. How many of them converted to Mercedes fans when Schumacher was there? How many people were in Ferrari gear outside his hospital window?

As for the twitter numbers, I agree with sagi in that they're biased. People follow celebs on twitter to get a look into their personal lives, or a chance to communicate directly with them. That's not something an organization like an F1 team can offer. Twitter (and social media in general) by its very nature favors individuals over organizations.

That being said, I don't think you can make a blanket statement either way, and I doubt there's a way to prove one side or the other.

[racechick]

I don't follow Lewis to see his private life. I follow him because he's the best driver, to hear news first and to hear what other fans have to say.
The question was is Lewis bigger than a team, not is Lewis bigger than Ferrari.

Just as Tifosi are Ferrari first and foremost, so Lewis fans are Lewis first and foremost. I wonder how much Mercedes fan base grew when Lewis went there? Well I joined it.

It all depends how many of all the f1 fans are driver led and how many are team led. But I'd hazard a guess that enough are driver led, and Lewis supporters for him to have more support than some teams. Easily I'd guess.

[spankyham]

Put Lewis or Fernando in a Marussia for a season or two and see which direction their twitter stats go.
Tell me what direction their stats would head if they were completely disassociated with any team?
Jacques Villeneurve is a WDC - it looks like he has about 14K followers.
I guess the real test of how popular Lewis is in his own right can only come once he's been no longer part of a team.

My two bobs worth

*** Edit - I guess another question to ask is how many driver fans would continue following their man if he moved to Indy or Nascar? ***

[acosmichippo]

I don't follow Lewis to see his private life. I follow him because he's the best driver, to hear news first and to hear what other fans have to say.
The question was is Lewis bigger than a team, not is Lewis bigger than Ferrari.

I didn't think this discussion was limited to lewis in particular, especially because this is a McLaren thread, after all. I thought lewis was just an example, so I offered Ferrari as an example where a team is most certainly bigger than any driver.

Just as Tifosi are Ferrari first and foremost, so Lewis fans are Lewis first and foremost. I wonder how much Mercedes fan base grew when Lewis went there? Well joined I joined it.

It all depends how many of all the f1 fans are driver led and how many are team led. But I'd hazard a guess that enough are driver led, and Lewis supporters for him to have more support than some teams. Easily I'd guess.

All I'm saying is I don't think the answer is so black and white. Depends which teams and drivers you're comparing.

[oaba09]

This is great news....McLaren had some solid years under whitmarsh but the fact is, he did was not able to make McLaren a championship team.....The return of ron gives hope to McLaren fans who remained loyal to the team despite the blunders of 2013.

[CookinFlat6]

I still see no evidence of Lewis not being more popular than a team.

Just one example? Ferrari. Tifosi are Ferrari fans first and foremost. How many of them converted to Mercedes fans when Schumacher was there? How many people were in Ferrari gear outside his hospital window?

As for the twitter numbers, I agree with sagi in that they're biased. People follow celebs on twitter to get a look into their personal lives, or a chance to communicate directly with them. That's not something an organization like an F1 team can offer. Twitter (and social media in general) by its very nature favors individuals over organizations.

That being said, I don't think you can make a blanket statement either way, and I doubt there's a way to prove one side or the other.

Funny that, only one side has come up with a blanket statement, and the same side is unable to come up with any meaningful evidence to prove a side.

All we have had is 'this is what I think' but no evidence whatsoever to support the original motion that to suggest a driver - Lewis, can be more commercially 'big' (in demand, followed, tracked, clicked on,) than a team is delusional - that's a blanket statement

On the other side tons of stats have been provided and tons of links to support the claim that a driver - Lewis can be and is more commercially attractive, followed, known, popular etc than a team

'Its not so because I feel so, and even without any evidence you are wrong because I don't agree' very intellectual stuff indeed

Ok let's make it simpler - Lewis is bigger than the HRT team in terms of following, commercial and merchandising, social media interest, marketing appeal, popularity, brand awareness. Basically he is bigger than the team, I have provided evidence and stats

Can anyone prove otherwise or disagree scientifically, and not just the usual 'I think this therefore you are wrong/biased/delusional/etc/etc'

If not I think we can safely say this debate is done

(thank you to all contributors for a lively and interesting debate with only a few personal insults hurled )

[racechick]

I don't follow Lewis to see his private life. I follow him because he's the best driver, to hear news first and to hear what other fans have to say.
The question was is Lewis bigger than a team, not is Lewis bigger than Ferrari.

I didn't think this discussion was limited to lewis in particular, especially because this is a McLaren thread, after all. I thought lewis was just an example, so I offered Ferrari as an example where a team is most certainly bigger than any driver.

Just as Tifosi are Ferrari first and foremost, so Lewis fans are Lewis first and foremost. I wonder how much Mercedes fan base grew when Lewis went there? Well joined I joined it.

It all depends how many of all the f1 fans are driver led and how many are team led. But I'd hazard a guess that enough are driver led, and Lewis supporters for him to have more support than some teams. Easily I'd guess.

All I'm saying is I don't think the answer is so black and white. Depends which teams and drivers you're comparing.

No the answer definitely isn't black and white, it depends very much on how you look at it. But if you put aside why the team/ driver is popular and how the team/ driver became popular and look purely at all the teams and drivers at this moment in time then I think it's safe to say, Lewis has more fans than some teams. Would he if he drove a Marussia? Don't know. Will he when he retires from driving? Don't know. But that's not the question, the question is ,has he now, and I'd still say yes he has.

[What's Burning?]

Put Lewis or Fernando in a Marussia for a season or two and see which direction their twitter stats go.
Tell me what direction their stats would head if they were completely disassociated with any team?
Jacques Villeneurve is a WDC - it looks like he has about 14K followers.
I guess the real test of how popular Lewis is in his own right can only come once he's been no longer part of a team.

My two bobs worth

*** Edit - I guess another question to ask is how many driver fans would continue following their man if he moved to Indy or Nascar? ***

Conversely, how popular would a team be if they couldn't get a real driving talent? Red Bull's dominance wouldn't seem neatly as imposing if they had Webber as their top talent.

[spankyham]

Put Lewis or Fernando in a Marussia for a season or two and see which direction their twitter stats go.
Tell me what direction their stats would head if they were completely disassociated with any team?
Jacques Villeneurve is a WDC - it looks like he has about 14K followers.
I guess the real test of how popular Lewis is in his own right can only come once he's been no longer part of a team.

My two bobs worth

*** Edit - I guess another question to ask is how many driver fans would continue following their man if he moved to Indy or Nascar? ***

Conversely, how popular would a team be if they couldn't get a real driving talent? Red Bull's dominance wouldn't seem neatly as imposing if they had Webber as their top talent.

You could well be right.

But when you measure any of these driver's Twitter popularity there are 4 clear contributors (in no particular order):-
1) success
2) the team they are part of
3) F1
4) the driver

IMO the mix will be different for each driver as it will for each team.

[bud]

End of the day, F1 is not a popularity contest. Who ever is winning (Vettel) has the last laugh.
So good on the dudes with the high twit followers, that's what it's all about!