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[spankyham]

Have I missed the sketch?

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Here tis...




It was a sketch from someone at the private release Ferrari did. No cameras or recording allowed.

What sticks out to me as being quite different to the Merc and Renault engine is how tight the exhaust is packaged around the engine. Sticks out even more bearing in mind what Lauda or Toto said about heat and controlling temps and narrow operating ranges......

[What's Burning?]

What sticks out to me as being quite different to the Merc and Renault engine is how tight the exhaust is packaged around the engine. Sticks out even more bearing in mind what Lauda or Toto said about heat and controlling temps and narrow operating ranges......

Where have you seen pictures of the Mercedes unit with the exhaust? Everything I've seen had just the engine block and turbo, no header/exhaust at all.

[spankyham]

What sticks out to me as being quite different to the Merc and Renault engine is how tight the exhaust is packaged around the engine. Sticks out even more bearing in mind what Lauda or Toto said about heat and controlling temps and narrow operating ranges......

Where have you seen pictures of the Mercedes unit with the exhaust? Everything I've seen had just the engine block and turbo, no header/exhaust at all.

Hmmm.... I just checked my "usual suspects" and can't see to find an image other than as you say, yet I was sure (until now) that I had seen it. My memory was of something between the Reno and Ferrari in terms of tight packaging... will continue my dig later ....

[Jabberwocky]

If heat is a problem then how the exhaust/turbo layout is one of the most visible and easy to work out how someone else has done it so not suprised that anyone has show it. If they did I would be suprised if it was not games man ship to throw them off.

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[spankyham]

Couple of people have now talked about Ferrari working on a 10mm spark plug. This would fit with the tidy/small Ferrari engine package. Perhaps have the exhaust up and tight and directly to the rear. I guess the theory would be the tighter and more compact the engine package is, the smaller the side pods could be. You'd think side pods will have to grow significantly this year with all the added cooling needed.

A question on ERS for the smarter people here who have access to the rules (and can understand them), I can see where the regulations limit how much power can be stored, and I can see the limitation on use from that stored energy. But I don't see a limit on how much energy can actually be created. Does that leave some scope for innovation in terms of directly using harvested energy without passing it through the storage system?

[What's Burning?]

IDK Spanky, in the end if the regulations state that you can only use the recovered power for X seconds per lap, there's a "control" to anything outside of the regulations right there. I'm hoping we see creative workarounds but the biggest gain in the new world regulations is going to come from some type of traction control. Whether it be from engine management or an active use of harvesting, given the additional torque and tires that teams are already complaining will not be able to handle that torque, that's likely to be the focus for anyone looking for a meaningful gains loophole.

[spankyham]

IDK Spanky, in the end if the regulations state that you can only use the recovered power for X seconds per lap, there's a "control" to anything outside of the regulations right there. I'm hoping we see creative workarounds but the biggest gain in the new world regulations is going to come from some type of traction control. Whether it be from engine management or an active use of harvesting, given the additional torque and tires that teams are already complaining will not be able to handle that torque, that's likely to be the focus for anyone looking for a meaningful gains loophole.

WB I'm almost certain that the ERS is not limited to X seconds per lap. I'm also pretty confident that there won't be a energy-boost "button" a-la the KERS button we are used to. The programming and engine maps will be in control of the use or the ERS. In fact Luca has said he fears with all the different energy sources and restrictions (and with them being computer controlled) it will be very confusing for fans. He was pushing for graphics that will at least show us turbo, HERS, KERS and economy modes so we can at least understand the vastly different race paces we are likely to see.

My technical question relates to energy being used that hasn't been stored anywhere. My understanding is there is a maximum you can store and there are restrictions on some use from the storage area. But what if a team can use or benefit from the harvesting process without storing? Can anyone see any part of the rules that would prevent that?

[racechick]

IDK Spanky, in the end if the regulations state that you can only use the recovered power for X seconds per lap, there's a "control" to anything outside of the regulations right there. I'm hoping we see creative workarounds but the biggest gain in the new world regulations is going to come from some type of traction control. Whether it be from engine management or an active use of harvesting, given the additional torque and tires that teams are already complaining will not be able to handle that torque, that's likely to be the focus for anyone looking for a meaningful gains loophole.

Well that's it then. RBR already have that.

[Jabberwocky]

IDK Spanky, in the end if the regulations state that you can only use the recovered power for X seconds per lap, there's a "control" to anything outside of the regulations right there. I'm hoping we see creative workarounds but the biggest gain in the new world regulations is going to come from some type of traction control. Whether it be from engine management or an active use of harvesting, given the additional torque and tires that teams are already complaining will not be able to handle that torque, that's likely to be the focus for anyone looking for a meaningful gains loophole.

WB I'm almost certain that the ERS is not limited to X seconds per lap. I'm also pretty confident that there won't be a energy-boost "button" a-la the KERS button we are used to. The programming and engine maps will be in control of the use or the ERS. In fact Luca has said he fears with all the different energy sources and restrictions (and with them being computer controlled) it will be very confusing for fans. He was pushing for graphics that will at least show us turbo, HERS, KERS and economy modes so we can at least understand the vastly different race paces we are likely to see.

My technical question relates to energy being used that hasn't been stored anywhere. My understanding is there is a maximum you can store and there are restrictions on some use from the storage area. But what if a team can use or benefit from the harvesting process without storing? Can anyone see any part of the rules that would prevent that?

No system is 100% efficient so any energy you harvest will impede the power unit in some way. Then not give it back at 100%

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[What's Burning?]

I actually found this on the F1.com site and it summarizes things well.

ERS comprise two energy recovery systems (Motor Generator Unit - Kinetic [MGU-K] and Motor Generator Unit - Heat [MGU-H]), plus an Energy Store (ES) and control electronics.

The motor generator units convert mechanical and heat energy to electrical energy and vice versa. MGU-K works like an uprated version of KERS, converting kinetic energy generated under braking into electricity (rather than it escaping as heat). It also acts as a motor under acceleration, returning up to 120kW (approximately 160bhp) power to the drivetrain from the Energy Store.

MGU-H is an energy recovery system connected to the turbocharger of the engine and converts heat energy from exhaust gases into electrical energy. The energy can then be used to power the MGU-K (and thus the drivetrain) or be retained in the ES for subsequent use. Unlike the MGU-K which is limited to recovering 2MJ of energy per lap, the MGU-H is unlimited. MGU-H also controls the speed of the turbo, speeding it up (to prevent turbo lag) or slowing it down in place of a more traditional wastegate.

A maximum of 4MJ per lap can be returned to the MGU-K and from there to the drivetrain - that’s ten times more than with 2013’s KERS. That means drivers should have an additional 160bhp or so for approximately 33 seconds per lap.

[CookinFlat6]

My technical question relates to energy being used that hasn't been stored anywhere. My understanding is there is a maximum you can store and there are restrictions on some use from the storage area. But what if a team can use or benefit from the harvesting process without storing? Can anyone see any part of the rules that would prevent that?

The rules allow unlimited harvesting of MGU-H and therefore the obvious, if tricky use would be for cooling purposes. Extracting heat energy would be cooling if configured in a way Im sure the engineers will be aware of. Maybe Im wrong though

[What's Burning?]

What they're saying is a maximum of 4 megajoules is what can be sent to the MGU-K and power to the drivetrain can only come from the MGU-K and even though the MGU-H can harvest unlimited engergy, it would have to be discharged elsewhere and not additional power for the drivetrain.

I had previously read that there was no actual time limit set, but that the power available would amount to 32~33 seconds of 160 additional horse power per lap as opposed to ERS that was only available for a total of 6 seconds per lap last year.

[spankyham]

So it seems there may be some scope to play with harvest and use of energy - be interesting to see what, if anything, teams try and make of this.

Although I still think the biggest area of creativity options will be in the drive-train

Also interested if Ferrari really have developed a 10mm spark plug and where they run their exhaust - as in will it be more compact giving more scope to make the pods smaller for better aeros.

Luca has a very good point about how confusing it could be depending on how all these power sources are used during the race and the potential differences in performance it might have. Having good graphics will be very useful for viewers, but what about the poor punters at the track - I guess Bernie can charge each of them a couple of hundred more each to have some mobile device with the data.

[Jabberwocky]

Am I missing something about the park plug. What is so difficult about getting a spark gap and a HT connector 10mms? Or does it include a spark pack, if so that would be impressive.

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[spankyham]

Am I missing something about the park plug. What is so difficult about getting a spark gap and a HT connector 10mms? Or does it include a spark pack, if so that would be impressive.

It's the whole thing. I believe all teams use the same plug which is 13mm (Scarbs quotes that in a recent interview with Peter Windsor)

Scarbs discussing a possible implication of the rumored Ferrari spark plug

If you read the bit just before Scarbs twitter quote you will see they are talking about a spark plug small enough to be integrated into a valve - I doubt that, but a smaller plug might allow the exhaust to exit where Scarbs suggests. As Scarbs says that will give a huge advantage in terms of pod size and design.