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[CookinFlat6]

The 'disturbing' comment alone...odd.."Has Whitmarsh been on the wacky bacci?"
Then most likely forgotten into the annals of history.

The 'disturbing' comment and the subsequent behaviour...disturbing. " Hello, what's going on here then?"
And it's not forgotten. It's remembered each time another bizzare action, comment, look, gush occurs as McLaren are dragged down.

Yup, and we are still waiting for ANYONE to put forward an opinion on why Whitmarsh considers Button PEERLESS at setup feedback and development

If anyone could explain that, they would be explaining the Whitmarsh/Button conundrum. A team after Alonso, yet the TP describes Button as better than Alonso in driving dveolpment and leading a team, after 2013

“Jenson’s race-winning speed, intelligence and racecraft have long been a crucial advantage to McLaren, but it’s his skill as a development driver and his peerless technical feedback that will be equally valuable as we make the transition into a new and complex technical formula during the winter and new year.”

peerless
adjective unequalled, excellent, unique, outstanding, unparalleled, superlative, unrivalled, second to none, incomparable, unmatched, unsurpassed, matchless, beyond compare

peer·less (pîrls)
adj.
Being such as to have no match; incomparable.

peerless
ˈpɪələs/Submit
adjective
1.
unequalled; unrivalled.
"a peerless cartoonist"
synonyms: incomparable, matchless, unrivalled, inimitable, beyond compare, unparalleled, unequalled, without equal, unmatched, beyond comparison, second to none, unsurpassed, unsurpassable, nonpareil; More

peerless
Do you ever feel like one of a kind? Then maybe you are peerless, a word for someone (or something) unique, excellent, and superior.
Peerless is a variation of peer — a word for folks in the same boat as you, or at least the same class. A teacher's peers are other teachers, but if she's a much better teacher than anyone, you could call her a peerless teacher. One of the many compliments given to Michael Jordan is that he was peerless. Amazing, one-of-a-kind people like Picasso, Gandhi, and Shakespeare are considered peerless. The rest of us have a lot of peers.

What explanation is there for Whitmarsh finding Button PEERLESS after 2013 if his judgement has not being 'disturbed' by his 'perturbed emotion' (hots) for Button?

[sagi58]

First if all it was said after the 2013 season ended.

Second, what's the point of responding just to say you don't see the point of responding?

Either address the question or ignore it.

Anyone can see button is no good at feedback or development, anyone knows Alonso is good at this, everyone knows McLaren are after Alonso

I say it shows Whitmarshes unprofessional and unhealthy bias for Button that continues to ruin the team

Either you got an opinion or you don't. No point just telling us it could mean anything so let's forget it

I responded to say that there was no reason to beat a dead horse.
You've made your point and shared your opinion over and again!
It's obvious you don't like either Whitmarsh or Button, that's fine;
but, is it necessary to keep repeating the same two or three phrases
like a mantra? It's done.

As for unprofessional and unhealthy bias, you could apply those same
adjectives to a number of media personnel when it comes to how they
present the "facts" as best benefits their own bias.

[sagi58]

...When we take all these things together to build a context, including wasting Hamilton at the expense of the same driver there is only one conclusion

Whitmarsh is a 'wrong-un' full stop and should not be in charge of a team or boys choir etc as his personal bias and preferences act to the detriment of the organisation. It does not matter who he likes, it should not ruin teams

I'm confused... Is that the issue, for you? That Hamilton left McLaren? Do you think that Whitmarsh somehow is responsible for Hamilton leaving McLaren? Because I would hope that Hamilton had more sense than to let "one" man push him out of a team that literally "raised" him, no?

As for Whitmarsh, I don't believe any "one" person can build a team, any more than I believe any "one" person can destroy it. There are probably myriad reasons why things have gone wrong at McLaren, as well as at Ferrari. It's comforting/reassuring to find "one" scapegoat, in the hopes that once s/he is gone, things will get back to normal; but, in the end, it's a TEAM sport which relies on all sorts of people behind the scenes, as well as on the front lines.

[CookinFlat6]

Sagi58, if you read back through the Mclaren thread then you will find many many observations about the decline of McLaren caused by many factors. Mainly the acceptance of mediocrity and the preference for less talented but agreeable (to Whitmarsh) staff over the more talented.

The reason we keep bringing this up is that every new happening or event at the team that continues the same path has to be dissected and protested in the hope of fan dissatisfaction somehow getting back to the team and ultimately bringing about change.

Fans have been complaining and protesting in public forums since 2010 when Whitmarsh employed Button instead of Kimi (the best available) and then rearranged the team to give Button advantages. This was said to be to help him settle down, but as time went on became mandatory.

Whitmarsh said things like 'Lewis is an experiment that didnt work out' and 'Lewis has been knocked of his pedestal by Button' and 'Lewis needs a driver like Button to look up to and learn from'
and ofcourse the big difference in his support and public comments about the 2 drivers

The fans pointed out that these actions would dismantle the greatness in Mclaren instilled by Ron Dennis, the fans pointed out that Button was not fit to be a McLaren number 1, the fans pointed out that employing staff like Sam Michael as the deputy TP over a talent like Paddy Lowe would end in disaster. These things have come home to roost.

However they continue, and are getting worse. To claim Button as PEERLESS at development and setup feedback, even after 2013 is another example. especially with the big changes ahead for 2014 where the feedback from drivers will be crucial to any catching up or evolution neccessary.

Despite reports like this

Jenson Button has plenty of experience in developing cars, but some insiders suggest his feedback is not as in-depth as his rivals.

The fans just want to know why the TP continues to place the future of the team in the hands of a

[What's Burning?]

As for Whitmarsh, I don't believe any "one" person can build a team, any more than I believe any "one" person can destroy it. There are probably myriad reasons why things have gone wrong at McLaren, as well as at Ferrari. It's comforting/reassuring to find "one" scapegoat, in the hopes that once s/he is gone, things will get back to normal; but, in the end, it's a TEAM sport which relies on all sorts of people behind the scenes, as well as on the front lines.

You're right. In the case of Ferrari, a lot of the Tifosi believe it's two people, Massa and Domenicalli.

[racechick]

As one of the 'guilty ' people who has frequently voiced displeasure at button and Whitmarsh, I will try to provide an answer.
I was incensed by the situation at McLaren. The comments that cookie has mentioned, things like 'button is a great leader' , ' Lewis should learn from Jenson' to name but a few, made my blood boil. The stupidity and the unfairness of it ...well you don't forget it , you don't forgive it, you don't get over it.
Ferrari fans, imagine for a minute the situation at Ferrari with Massa and Domenicalli. How would you feel if Alonso was constantly sidelined for Massa? At the expense of championships? If Massa was lauded as the saviour of Ferrari while Alonso was dragging the car to results despite this? And if you're observant, and angry and mention it as soon as it becomes apparent...well everyone calls you a conspiracy theorist?

Yes, I do think the triumverate of Whitmarsh, button and Michael with warped values and inept skills , drove Lewis and paddy from McLaren. And it rankles that it was allowed to happen despite the fact that I am delighted Lewis is in a better place.

So when something else crops up....like the PEERLESS comment...or someone asks why button or Whitmarsh get bashed, then I can't keep quiet because all the old anger comes back.

Anger management? Hit the bottle? Or share with my friends on here? Sorry guys, you win the jackpot


Ps I have absolutely nothing whatsoever against Button or McLaren fans, I rank some of them as very good friends and i think they know that!

[CookinFlat6]

In addition to what RC has said, it needs to be said that everything we have pointed out has now become widely accepted or has happened. The main thing is McLaren then and where they are now. There is no other explanation neccessary and no need to go searching for any other reasons. The team have dropped into their worse run of form ever.

And now we hear of insiders confirming what we have said all along, we hear of Ron trying to remove Whitmarsh, we hear of whitmarsh overridding everyone else in the team to make decisions pointing to the distortion of his judgement due to 'hotness'

And all the time we were pointing things out, everyone else was telling us there was no problem at Mclaren and that we were overreacting and 'what does it matter?'

Well guess what they dont say that anymore, but there is a new crowd now doing the kneejerk status quo line. 'You guys keep going on about something' and 'one man doesnt make the difference' and 'its just a blip', and 'its getting boring pointing out things' and 'stop attacking the same guys over and over, its not their fault, give them a chance,

ultimately those with less experience observing a certain team, just reacting and telling us 'there is nothing wrong at Mclaren, stop going on about it, these things happen'

'Oh we find it boring listen to you pointing out the faults' well we find it boring you ignorantly pointing out our attempts to provide resistance in any way we can to the calamity

Well guess what, what is wrong is not being fixed, we are once again highlighting the source of structural problems that lead to more and worse 2013s

[sagi58]

Sagi58, if you read back through the Mclaren thread then you will find many many observations about the decline of McLaren caused by many factors. Mainly the acceptance of mediocrity and the preference for less talented but agreeable (to Whitmarsh) staff over the more talented...

The fans just want to know why the TP continues to place the future of the team in the hands of a

Thanks; but, I'll take your word for it! So... is this a case of "I told you so"?
A case of fans knowing better than the team what's going on?
Or is that over-simplified?

[sagi58]

As for Whitmarsh, I don't believe any "one" person can build a team, any more than I believe any "one" person can destroy it. There are probably myriad reasons why things have gone wrong at McLaren, as well as at Ferrari. It's comforting/reassuring to find "one" scapegoat, in the hopes that once s/he is gone, things will get back to normal; but, in the end, it's a TEAM sport which relies on all sorts of people behind the scenes, as well as on the front lines.

You're right. In the case of Ferrari, a lot of the Tifosi believe it's two people, Massa and Domenicalli.

Being one of those fans who don't have any more faith in either of them, I still recognize the fact that even they too are not "solely" responsible for what's going on at Ferrari!!

[sagi58]

...Ferrari fans, imagine for a minute the situation at Ferrari with Massa and Domenicalli. How would you feel if Alonso was constantly sidelined for Massa? At the expense of championships? If Massa was lauded as the saviour of Ferrari while Alonso was dragging the car to results despite this? And if you're observant, and angry and mention it as soon as it becomes apparent...well everyone calls you a conspiracy theorist?

...Anger management? Hit the bottle? Or share with my friends on here? Sorry guys, you win the jackpot

Thanks for clarifying, RC!!

The above comment about Ferrari "hit a nerve" because I've seriously thought there was way too much accommodation for Massa! Yes, loyalty is important in this day and age, since it seems money talks much too loudly! However, I always had a gut feeling from the differences I "saw" in Massa, since his accident, that he just wasn't ever going to reach his glory days of that one fateful year when he lost the WDC.

Has Massa cost Ferrari championships? I'd say yes, because his performance hasn't been anywhere near what it could have been and there have always been reasons, excuses, explanations as to why he wasn't as strong as Alonso. Sure, it's not fair to compare him to Alonso; but, he is Alonso's teammate, they drive the same car, they are on the same team!!

Has Domenicali cost Ferrari championships? I'd say yes, because he has made some decisions that rankled when they were made and still do to this day!!

Having said that, I still wouldn't say they were the "only" reasons Ferrari hasn't done better, these past few years.

[sagi58]

...And all the time we were pointing things out, everyone else was telling us there was no problem at Mclaren and that we were overreacting and 'what does it matter?'...

McLaren were the first to say there was nothing wrong within their ranks.
But... I guess, it must be nice to be able to say "I told you so", eh?
I know the feeling because I'm just as happy that Kimi is back!!

[CookinFlat6]

Sagi58, if you read back through the Mclaren thread then you will find many many observations about the decline of McLaren caused by many factors. Mainly the acceptance of mediocrity and the preference for less talented but agreeable (to Whitmarsh) staff over the more talented...

The fans just want to know why the TP continues to place the future of the team in the hands of a

Thanks; but, I'll take your word for it! So... is this a case of "I told you so"?
A case of fans knowing better than the team what's going on?
Or is that over-simplified?

Its not a case of 'I told you so' its a case of 'I am telling you so' as it is happening right now and is what we respond to

Imagine Montezemolo found that just looking at Massa stirred up emotional turmoil and disturbance for him. And then the whole team was tasked to making Massa faster than Alonso, changing the whole car to suit someone who for over a decade was famed to have the narrowest operating window on the grid, who wasted one of the biggest budgets for years saying 'I dont understand what happened, the car was fine when I set it up and then in quali it just wasnt fast'
Imagine Alonso toiling away getting results for the team and being let down continuously by the worse strategies, pit stops, less experienced engineers. With the TP bursting into tears when one driver came from 15th to 4th while ignoring the one that went from 6th to win.

Now imagine the TP signing the on a multiyear big money contract, whilst trying to pay less to the talented guy

Thats not even a quarter of the story but lets just leave it at that before I start breaking things

[racechick]

...Ferrari fans, imagine for a minute the situation at Ferrari with Massa and Domenicalli. How would you feel if Alonso was constantly sidelined for Massa? At the expense of championships? If Massa was lauded as the saviour of Ferrari while Alonso was dragging the car to results despite this? And if you're observant, and angry and mention it as soon as it becomes apparent...well everyone calls you a conspiracy theorist?

...Anger management? Hit the bottle? Or share with my friends on here? Sorry guys, you win the jackpot

Thanks for clarifying, RC!!

The above comment about Ferrari "hit a nerve" because I've seriously thought there was way too much accommodation for Massa! Yes, loyalty is important in this day and age, since it seems money talks much too loudly! However, I always had a gut feeling from the differences I "saw" in Massa, since his accident, that he just wasn't ever going to reach his glory days of that one fateful year when he lost the WDC.

Has Massa cost Ferrari championships? I'd say yes, because his performance hasn't been anywhere near what it could have been and there have always been reasons, excuses, explanations as to why he wasn't as strong as Alonso. Sure, it's not fair to compare him to Alonso; but, he is Alonso's teammate, they drive the same car, they are on the same team!!

Has Domenicali cost Ferrari championships? I'd say yes, because he has made some decisions that rankled when they were made and still do to this day!!

Having said that, I still wouldn't say they were the "only" reasons Ferrari hasn't done better, these past few years.

I come at this situation primarily as a driver supporter, you come at it primarily as a team supporter and i think that does create differences. i can see your point entirely as a team supporter that Massa has cost points. As a driver supporter I think domenicalli has been reasonably fair with his two drivers ( accepting that the loyalty to Massa has cost) .
domenicalli may not be the most hard nosed team boss but how much worse would you feel if he went gaga and started to cry when Massa did well? Took Alonso's engineer off him to make it 'fair' for Massa? started saying Massas drivers were the best in the history of F1. Said Alonso should learn from Massa. And took all the engin eering team off their jobs to concentrate on getting Massa up to speed......this when Ferrari through Alonso had a chance at both championships. thats the closest I can get to explaining how it feels.

It's bad enough if your team loose out because one driver is not up to spec, but when the driver you support is the one getting shafted for a less able one...it hurts big time,

[sagi58]

...Imagine Montezemolo found that just looking at Massa stirred up emotional turmoil and disturbance for him. And then the whole team was tasked to making Massa faster than Alonso, changing the whole car to suit someone who for over a decade was famed to have the narrowest operating window on the grid, who wasted one of the biggest budgets for years saying 'I dont understand what happened, the car was fine when I set it up and then in quali it just wasnt fast'
Imagine Alonso toiling away getting results for the team and being let down continuously by the worse strategies, pit stops, less experienced engineers. With the TP bursting into tears when one driver came from 15th to 4th while ignoring the one that went from 6th to win.

Now imagine the TP signing the on a multiyear big money contract, whilst trying to pay less to the talented guy

Thats not even a quarter of the story but lets just leave it at that before I start breaking things

I guess you haven't been following Ferrari to see how many chances, how many excuses, how many explanations have been made for Massa's "lack" of results, eh? You haven't noticed that many Ferrari fans were disgruntled at losing Kimi, when Alonso arrived? Well, it wasn't Alonso's arrival that rankled, it was choosing to keep Massa instead of Kimi that was the problem, for me, anyway (but, I will admit to being biased, so I trusted my team to make the best decision). Maybe you didn't pay attention to the number of times that Domenicali had his arm around Massa, to "console" him, to keep his spirits up, to encourage him?

And, I don't have to imagine Alonso "toiling away getting results for the team" because that's what he has done since coming to Ferrari!! He has gotten points, he has pulled the team along, with a car that had no business being as fast as it was under him. He has suffered from strategies that didn't work; but, that's expected of him, no? So, when he accomplished anything is wasn't anything more than was expected, whereas whenever Massa made it into the top 10 points, it was cause for celebration?

Regardless, it is what it is. Ferrari, in its wisdom chose Massa. In its wisdom, they've brought Kimi back.
As a fan, aside from voicing an opinion, there has to be an amount of trust, because I don't know what's
going on behind the scenes. I don't have all the facts. I can only speculate on what's in the media.

[CookinFlat6]

Massa isnt the lead Ferrari driver now is he?