FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[operaman]

...You forgot to add that $60 million of that came from owning the YES network. Perhaps Ferrari should research the Yankees model for revenue generation, instead of begging for favours.

Not sure of the actual numbers; but, you'd think selling a "few" Ferrari's would top that, no?

1 or 2 perhaps. Btw the Yes Network is a TV network, not an underground organization dedicated to a formerly popular, self-indulgent, pop-art, Brit-band. Getting close to the edge with that comment.

[spankyham]

...You forgot to add that $60 million of that came from owning the YES network. Perhaps Ferrari should research the Yankees model for revenue generation, instead of begging for favours.

Not sure of the actual numbers; but, you'd think selling a "few" Ferrari's would top that, no?

1 or 2 perhaps. Btw the Yes Network is a TV network, not an underground organization dedicated to a formerly popular, self-indulgent, pop-art, Brit-band. Getting close to the edge with that comment.

The figures I quoted were purely MLB games TV coverage. You pointing out that NY gets an additional $60Mil over and above the bonus they get for simply being the Yankees simply proves that some teams in sport do better than others because they negotiate better contracts and/or have a lot more fans. It is not unique to Ferrari in F1.

As sagi58 also points out, Ferrari sell heaps of cars and makes a mountain of money out of that, Red Bull sells multi-billions of $ of their drinks. When some look at the advantages teams like Ferrari have built they just carp on and on about how Ferrari have done better and built better financial positions, negotiated better contracts and got more fans. Instead of trying to turn F1 into a communist economic model, they should start venting at their teams management. If Ferrari and Red Bull can negotiate a better deal out of the new Concorde, then why can't my team do the same or better?

As I pointed out earlier, Mercedes held out for a better deal than some other teams in the Concorde. They held the whole sport to ransom for nearly a year and threatening to pull out. I guess those who don't like Ferrari being able to negotiate better contracts will be rushing to Mercedes demanding that Toto hands over all their extra benefits and booty to Caterham and Marussia

[racechick]

I can't remember the details of that Concorde agreement thing, but weren't Merc holding out for more EQUAL treatment? Rather than asking to be given a regular no questions asked advantage?
That's how I remember it, but as I say, not sure of all the details.

[spankyham]

I can't remember the details of that Concorde agreement thing, but weren't Merc holding out for more EQUAL treatment? Rather than asking to be given a regular no questions asked advantage?
That's how I remember it, but as I say, not sure of all the details.

Merc have specials in the new Concorde over and above the likes of Caterham and Marussia.

[racechick]

I can't remember the details of that Concorde agreement thing, but weren't Merc holding out for more EQUAL treatment? Rather than asking to be given a regular no questions asked advantage?
That's how I remember it, but as I say, not sure of all the details.

Merc have specials in the new Concorde over and above the likes of Caterham and Marussia.

But didn't Merc fight to get on a par with the other big teams ? The ones they're competing against? If Caterham and Marussia also have unfavourable terms they should also object as Mercedes did.

[spankyham]

But didn't Merc fight to get on a par with the other big teams ? The ones they're competing against? If Caterham and Marussia also have unfavourable terms they should also object as Mercedes did.

Merc fought to get a deal that was over and above what other teams got. We will probably never know how much more they got by being the last stand-out to sign on.

I'm just asking those who were so vociferous that Ferrari shouldn't have the ability to negotiate a better contract if they will standup and say that Mercedes should hand back all they negotiated above what was in the contract they were offered a year ago?

[CookinFlat6]

Merc just wanted what the other manufacturers and big teams got.

a bit different to having advantages like extra help. extra money, vetos and special status, advantages that were hidden from the rest of the grid for ages and are only coming out bit by bit as Bernie cuts loose

[sagi58]

Do we have it in black and white exactly what Mercedes got?
Or is that also going to be...

... hidden from the rest of the grid for ages and are only coming out bit by bit as Bernie cuts loose

[CookinFlat6]

Well we do know that Merc do not get paid money off the top of all revenue. Separate to the money for where the place in the WCC and separate to money they get for participating for a couple of years running.
We also know that Merc dont have a special status thats unique.

Also the Merc ex TP is not the unopposed head of the FIA

And we know that Merc beat Ferrari in the WCC

[sagi58]

And, we know that you and I will never see eye to eye when it comes to Ferrari!!

[CookinFlat6]

And, we know that you and I will never see eye to eye when it comes to Ferrari!!

Did you see that Ferrari beat Merc in the WCC? Maybe we are seeing different things

Actually I am not going to say more about this. However I would like to leave with a comment made by Eddie Jordan - that fountain of wisdom, after the Ferrari team orders gate incident in 2010. I think EJ speaks for many sporting fans here;

"What Ferrari did was they showed no respect the public, they treated us all like muppets, they broke the rule and they have to pay the penalty."
Whether former Ferrari chief and current FIA president Jean Todt attends the hearing or not, Jordan believes he will have a big input into the outcome.
"(Former president) Max Mosley didn't always attend these meetings but his thought process was very much in evidence," said Jordan. "(Todt's) decision will be embedded in that body of people."
Jordan urged the FIA not to give Ferrari special treatment.
"I've lived with it for 40 years now," he said. "It used to be far worse. People used to think the FIA stood for Ferrari International Assistance.
"Ferrari are important, but they must treat everybody with respect. What they did was so blatant.
"Had they done it in a different way they might have got away with it.
"This was so, so obvious, they have to be punished."

What happened next?

Ferrari have escaped further punishment for using banned team orders.
The FIA, world motorsport's governing body, upheld Ferrari's $100,000 (£65,100) fine, but will review the rule banning team orders.
F1's Sporting Working Group will look into the rule that forbids a team to tell a driver to cede to his team-mate.

FIA president Jean Todt, who was in Paris for another World Motor Sport Council meeting and had excluded himself from the process to avoid a conflict of interests arising from his previous role as Ferrari team boss, claimed there was insufficient evidence on which to prove any guilt on Ferrari's part.
"Before you say someone is guilty you need to be able to prove it," said Todt. "Everyone has denied that it was a team order."

This was written BEFORE Bernie finally confirmed that there existed extra help like vetoes.

[racechick]

But didn't Merc fight to get on a par with the other big teams ? The ones they're competing against? If Caterham and Marussia also have unfavourable terms they should also object as Mercedes did.

Merc fought to get a deal that was over and above what other teams got. We will probably never know how much more they got by being the last stand-out to sign on.

I'm just asking those who were so vociferous that Ferrari shouldn't have the ability to negotiate a better contract if they will standup and say that Mercedes should hand back all they negotiated above what was in the contract they were offered a year ago?

I still say these are two very different scenarios. One is an agreement where all teams are involved they negotiate the best deal they can for their team.
The other,the one Ferrari get, is handed out to Ferrari only, no one else can have a veto, no one else can have the 'extra' payment. And for the most part no one else even knows about it ( until it gets leaked) . It's only negotiable if you're Ferrari.

[spankyham]

I still say these are two very different scenarios. One is an agreement where all teams are involved they negotiate the best deal they can for their team.
The other,the one Ferrari get, is handed out to Ferrari only, no one else can have a veto, no one else can have the 'extra' payment. And for the most part no one else even knows about it ( until it gets leaked) . It's only negotiable if you're Ferrari.

I see your distinction, although I'm not convinced of its relevance.

Firstly, you're assuming there is a separate agreement, we don't know that. Secondly, even if there is a separate agreement, there is nothing preventing any or all other teams from negotiating there own separate agreement.

Pre the 2009 season, Brawn went and got a separate approval for their diffuser. It was challenged but, in the end, the separate agreement Ross got was vindicated. Well done Ross and his team. And here we are talking about a tangible, on track, racing advantage.

[racechick]

And I can see where you're coming from but still disagree.
If I get you right, you think it's all fair in love and war, and if Ferrari can engineer an advantageous position which gives them benefits, then that's ok and shows kudos in the negotiating arena.

Lets take a look at your Brawn example. Yes. Brawn got the diffuser okayed. He saw a grey area in the regs and got in first seeking clarification before anyone else could seek reverse clarification( ie banning the diffuser). Very clever, and it worked.

But where I see a difference in the two approaches is that the avenue Brawn took is open to anyone. Anyone can seek rule clarification. The special Ferrari terms are non negotiable for other teams. They are for Ferrari only.

When Brawn got that diffuser passed other teams could use it. Other teams can't have a veto now they know Ferrari have one. Neither can they negotiate one for next year . It's for Ferrari only, no one else allowed.

That's the difference. The advantages other teams may get for themselves are available to all should they see the opening and peruse it. Ferrari's veto and extra cash is not available to all.

[spankyham]

And I can see where you're coming from but still disagree.
If I get you right, you think it's all fair in love and war, and if Ferrari can engineer an advantageous position which gives them benefits, then that's ok and shows kudos in the negotiating arena.

Lets take a look at your Brawn example. Yes. Brawn got the diffuser okayed. He saw a grey area in the regs and got in first seeking clarification before anyone else could seek reverse clarification( ie banning the diffuser). Very clever, and it worked.

But where I see a difference in the two approaches is that the avenue Brawn took is open to anyone. Anyone can seek rule clarification. The special Ferrari terms are non negotiable for other teams. They are for Ferrari only.

When Brawn got that diffuser passed other teams could use it. Other teams can't have a veto now they know Ferrari have one. Neither can they negotiate one for next year . It's for Ferrari only, no one else allowed.

That's the difference. The advantages other teams may get for themselves are available to all should they see the opening and peruse it. Ferrari's veto and extra cash is not available to all.

I see your point, but just to clarify, the Ferrari veto isn't exclusive. Any other team could negotiate for the same veto. Just like the UN security council permanent members veto, there are 5 countries that hold the same veto. In fact there is nothing to say that there aren't other teams that do have the same veto. On the money, again, any team can negotiate for higher pay, that pretty much happens in all contract negotiations. And again, there is nothing to say there aren't other teams that also have additional $. We don't know what Merc got for holding out in signing the Concorde, but whatever they got, well done I say.