Bootstrap Framework 3.3.6

[racechick]

Maybe they bought the wrong things.

Yup! I'd say the only ones in the right cue were Red Bull!

Yes. If you can afford...or tempt Newey you're onto a winner.

It would seem he's not for sale!

Apparently, maybe the tempting isn't juicy enough.

[bud]

...money is everything in F1 they have an uneven head start over their rivals. Thrown on top of their illegal major sponsorship money from a tobacco company. Yeah Ferrari play fair!!

Money is NOT everything in F1! It may "buy" a lot; but, it is NOT everything!
If it was, then Ferrari should have been the team to beat these last four years, no?

which makes their performance even more embarrassing for them

[CookinFlat6]

...money is everything in F1 they have an uneven head start over their rivals. Thrown on top of their illegal major sponsorship money from a tobacco company. Yeah Ferrari play fair!!

Money is NOT everything in F1! It may "buy" a lot; but, it is NOT everything!
If it was, then Ferrari should have been the team to beat these last four years, no?

which makes their performance even more embarrassing for them

Money is not everything apparently. However Ferrari who have won almost nothing in the last decade having spent the most, and having seen a drinks company with no illustrious Ferrari style history in F1 come from scratch in 5 years spending less to dominate.
And whats Ferraris solution to winning things again? Yup, Spend more

Maybe the team need to start listening more to their tifosa

[CookinFlat6]

Ok so 2 Ferrari supporters say its ok to push every advantage and rule they can, including the special status situation.
So my simple question to you remains - Special status and vetoes and extra money equates to a points advantage at the start of each season.
Would you be happy if the FIA just handed over 100 point lead at the start of each season instead? Yes or No?

Maybe in YOUR mind; but, I do NOT agree that that equates to a points advantage!!

As for the point lead, here, let me be as clear as crystal:



Give it up, already, eh?

Ok so you dont think special status, veto on rules, extra help and extra money can be equated to a points advantage, but you agree that it is an advantage of sorts

ok so how about if the FIA brought out a rule that allowed Ferrari to start on the front row for every single race. Thats an advantage, would you Ferrari fans be happy with that advantage? Yes or no?

If the answer is no, yet you are happy with other less visible starting advantages over the other 'competitors' then there is no longer any argument

If the answer is yes, all we wanted to know was WHY? the time spent in F1 or the amount of fans is not reason to let Ferrari start on the front row each race forever regardless, so unless there is a better reason that has not been provided so far by the Ferrari fans, then

[sagi58]

You are obviously being argumentative! You obviously do not like Ferrari or Tifosi!
I get it!

BUT, nothing you can say or argue will change my mind or my allegiance. And, I would
NOT attempt to change your mind or your own allegiance! So, let's agree to disagree!

The only thing I would ask is a little respect for our differences!

[CookinFlat6]

You are obviously being argumentative! You obviously do not like Ferrari or Tifosi!
I get it!

again when confronts with logical question, it becomes 'you hate us all' I would argue for Ferrari if it was another team that claimed it was sporting to start with an advantage

BUT, nothing you can say or argue will change my mind or my allegiance. And, I would
NOT attempt to change your mind or your own allegiance! So, let's agree to disagree!

No ones trying to change your allegiance. Just asking you why you would be happy with Ferrari starting on front row. You are avoiding the question, which is the op . You are happy with a veto and extra help, but not points headstart. This is inconsistent

The only thing I would ask is a little respect for our differences!

I don't know the difference. I am trying to find out where you stand on the extra help and veto etc, are you happy with starting on the front row?

At least you have the nerve to try and defend the teams actions. Most other Titosi just say 'take it of leave it'

Is it ok to have extra help, is it ok to start on front row each race, is it ok to have a points advantage

How can it be ok to compete with extra help, vetos, extra cash, special status?

[Hammer278]

You are obviously being argumentative! You obviously do not like Ferrari or Tifosi!
I get it!

BUT, nothing you can say or argue will change my mind or my allegiance. And, I would
NOT attempt to change your mind or your own allegiance! So, let's agree to disagree!

The only thing I would ask is a little respect for our differences!

He's asking some good points. More money equals more resources in the factory or more impetus to build better machinery/improve operations. Why should one team get handouts while everyone else needs to make that additional compromise to keep up?

If you don't like the Ferraris starting on the front row all the time means you don't favour additional advantage. If you apply this consistently, you'd admit Ferrari are given an unfair advantage over every other team even before the flag drops. Admitting this is tough, since this would mean Ferrari have been an inefficient operation for the past 6 years, doing very little with very much.

[spankyham]

If you don't like the Ferraris starting on the front row all the time means you don't favour additional advantage. If you apply this consistently, you'd admit Ferrari are given an unfair advantage over every other team even before the flag drops. Admitting this is tough, since this would mean Ferrari have been an inefficient operation for the past 6 years, doing very little with very much.

At best this line of thinking is naive, more likely its just an excuse to vent some anti-Ferrari diatribe.

In F1, just like other major sports, some teams make lots more $ out of the sport than other teams. Just like getting the rules changed mid season helps some teams and hurts other, just like having over 400 engineers (4 times what my team has) to design their 2014 engine - well done by the teams that manage that.

Every season some team start with an advantage, be that a better driver or a better design or better engineers or pushing the rules on bendy car parts smarter than other teams - well done by them.

Those who don't like the fact that other teams gained an advantage, then IMO, stiff cheddar to them. They and their fans can go cry yet another river. If they want to race where every team has everything the same they can go motor racing in Pyong Yang.

[CookinFlat6]

Every season some team start with an advantage, be that a better driver or a better design or better engineers or pushing the rules on bendy car parts smarter than other teams - well done by them.

Thats justification for 1 team to be guaranteed an advantage? An advantage that is guaranteed each year? an advantage that was denied for years and only recently confirmed by Bernie?

I am sorry but its like saying, every race some team starts on pole position and so has an advantage.
Big difference to saying the same team starting on pole each race by default

so Ferrari fans are happy with the concept of handicapping - So like in golf we handicap better players. Therefore every single team, including Marrussia has to be handicapped to compete with Ferrari to make it fair


Why cant Ferrari fans just do the decent thing and admit that extra help and money and vetos are unfair, unsporting and embarrassing for them

[CookinFlat6]

So going back to the OP 'can Ferrari veto things' it seems that the answer from the Ferrari fans is that 'yes it can' and whats more they can have other starting advantages that are not performance related but just because.

In true Ferrari style the only way to conclude this argument would be simply to changes the rules and lock the thread

[What's Burning?]

Can't believe you guys keep missing the real important part of this thread. Bernie's successor.

[CookinFlat6]

Has Rob Smedley been confirmed by Ferrari as bernies replacement

[operaman]

If you don't like the Ferraris starting on the front row all the time means you don't favour additional advantage. If you apply this consistently, you'd admit Ferrari are given an unfair advantage over every other team even before the flag drops. Admitting this is tough, since this would mean Ferrari have been an inefficient operation for the past 6 years, doing very little with very much.

At best this line of thinking is naive, more likely its just an excuse to vent some anti-Ferrari diatribe.

In F1, just like other major sports, some teams make lots more $ out of the sport than other teams. Just like getting the rules changed mid season helps some teams and hurts other, just like having over 400 engineers (4 times what my team has) to design their 2014 engine - well done by the teams that manage that.

Every season some team start with an advantage, be that a better driver or a better design or better engineers or pushing the rules on bendy car parts smarter than other teams - well done by them.

Those who don't like the fact that other teams gained an advantage, then IMO, stiff cheddar to them. They and their fans can go cry yet another river. If they want to race where every team has everything the same they can go motor racing in Pyong Yang.

I think you are missing the point, or purposely trying to obscure it. You are right, in every sport certain teams start with an advantage. However only in F1 does this advantage go to one team and is embedded in the rules. In other sports the advantage comes from running a superior operation. You are right too that in other major sports some teams make more money than others. However this is due to excellence of management, not special status. The New York Yankees for example generate massive amounts of cash using their brand in clever ways, but get the same amount of money from MLB as every other team.

Your "cry another river" response is pretty childish. If Ferrari cannot compete on a level playing field, perhaps they should try a spec series where they determine the spec. I'm sure you and the hordes of Ferrari fans would rejoice in seeing a perpetual Ferrari podium. It's what you want isn't it? Perhaps that is what is necessary to seal the deal.

[Hammer278]

You are right, in every sport certain teams start with an advantage. However only in F1 does this advantage go to one team and is embedded in the rules. In other sports the advantage comes from running a superior operation. You are right too that in other major sports some teams make more money than others. However this is due to excellence of management, not special status. The New York Yankees for example generate massive amounts of cash using their brand in clever ways, but get the same amount of money from MLB as every other team.

Lol couldn't have said it better myself, cheers mate

[CookinFlat6]

Another question, perhaps for another thread is why the Ferrari advantages were kept secret and hidden from the other teams for so long

Was it better for the other teams to be unaware of the special status and advantages or does this indicate that Ferrari were not as proud of their 'political achievement' as the fans appear to be