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[Big Azza]

So, the straight-talking Webber, darling of many on this website has given his honest opinion on the drivers he's raced, and he puts Vettel and Alonso ahead of Hamilton.

What ridiculous line of reasoning will people come up with to refute this new evidence supporting Vettel's greatness?

Source: http://www.crash.net/f1/news/198934/1/webber-sebs-still-the-favourite.html

Webber: Sebastian Vettel still the favourite for success in F1 2014

Mark Webber has warned his former F1 rivals that it will take more than a change of regulations – and awarding double points for the final race of the season – to stop Red Bull colleague Sebastian Vettel from being the man to beat in 2014.

On the opposite side of the RBR garage throughout Vettel's four-season reign as world champion, the Australian expects this former employer and team-mate to start the latest era of F1 as favourites to make it five in a row in both the drivers' and constructors' championships. With the 2013 titles wrapped up well in advance of the Interlagos finale, Red Bull will have been able to devote a little more time to its 2014 contender which will, once again, come from the pen of the ultra-successful Adrian Newey.

And, while Newey has suggested that the rules makeover – with a new engine and drivetrain and less influential aerodynamics – will level the playing field, Webber is confident that, as a team, Red Bull has what it takes to remain in front.

"They'll be favourites for starting the season very strongly, which is probably not what people at home want to hear," he told the BBC, "It's an engine category next year more than probably a car/aerodynamic category, which is probably not a bad thing for some people, but there will also still be decent driver input, especially from a brainpower perspective in terms of pacing and managing and all the technology the cars are going to have next year, which will help Sebastian. That's right up his alley, perfect for him."

Despite several on-track contretemps over the years, it is clear that Webber always had a high level of respect for Vettel the driver, and rates him amongst the best that he has competed against in a twelve-year F1 career.

"It's probably between Seb and Fernando [Alonso]," he suggested, discounting seven-time world champion Michael Schumacher from the argument having not ever really raced head-to-head with the German.

“He was in a Ferrari and I was in something else, and, when I was in a Red Bull, he was in a Merc, which was further back. But [Vettel and Alonso] were certainly in their prime when I was. On Sundays, Fernando - over two hours - is a handful. There is no question about that [but], over one lap, I think he's not with Seb. Lewis [Hamilton] is handy, but probably not quite as much of a 'machine' as those two are. They are literally 'plug them in and off they go'. They are very, very handy."

[operaman]

So, the straight-talking Webber, darling of many on this website has given his honest opinion on the drivers he's raced, and he puts Vettel and Alonso ahead of Hamilton.

What ridiculous line of reasoning will people come up with to refute this new evidence supporting Vettel's greatness?

Source: http://www.crash.net/f1/news/198934/1/webber-sebs-still-the-favourite.html

Webber: Sebastian Vettel still the favourite for success in F1 2014

Mark Webber has warned his former F1 rivals that it will take more than a change of regulations – and awarding double points for the final race of the season – to stop Red Bull colleague Sebastian Vettel from being the man to beat in 2014.

On the opposite side of the RBR garage throughout Vettel's four-season reign as world champion, the Australian expects this former employer and team-mate to start the latest era of F1 as favourites to make it five in a row in both the drivers' and constructors' championships. With the 2013 titles wrapped up well in advance of the Interlagos finale, Red Bull will have been able to devote a little more time to its 2014 contender which will, once again, come from the pen of the ultra-successful Adrian Newey.

And, while Newey has suggested that the rules makeover – with a new engine and drivetrain and less influential aerodynamics – will level the playing field, Webber is confident that, as a team, Red Bull has what it takes to remain in front.

"They'll be favourites for starting the season very strongly, which is probably not what people at home want to hear," he told the BBC, "It's an engine category next year more than probably a car/aerodynamic category, which is probably not a bad thing for some people, but there will also still be decent driver input, especially from a brainpower perspective in terms of pacing and managing and all the technology the cars are going to have next year, which will help Sebastian. That's right up his alley, perfect for him."

Despite several on-track contretemps over the years, it is clear that Webber always had a high level of respect for Vettel the driver, and rates him amongst the best that he has competed against in a twelve-year F1 career.

"It's probably between Seb and Fernando [Alonso]," he suggested, discounting seven-time world champion Michael Schumacher from the argument having not ever really raced head-to-head with the German.

“He was in a Ferrari and I was in something else, and, when I was in a Red Bull, he was in a Merc, which was further back. But [Vettel and Alonso] were certainly in their prime when I was. On Sundays, Fernando - over two hours - is a handful. There is no question about that [but], over one lap, I think he's not with Seb. Lewis [Hamilton] is handy, but probably not quite as much of a 'machine' as those two are. They are literally 'plug them in and off they go'. They are very, very handy."

I expect that they will say that Webber chose his team-mate (pretty hard to argue with 4 WDCs, especially when he's the guy who beat you) and his best friend on the grid. Btw, I'm NOT a Webber fan.

[CookinFlat6]

At least 2 tps must have voted Alonso first. And the highest Whitmarsh could have voted button is 4th. Maybe he is recovering from his disturbances

[What's Burning?]

It's an honorable tale saying he was beaten by the best there ever was.

[racechick]

Of course Mark is going to talk Seb up. Seb beat him resoundingly. Mark is a hardly hoping to turn round and say " yeah mate, he beat me but you know he's not that good, it's just I'm a pile of crap", now is he??
And big Azza, say what you like, I'm not convinced of any greatness. I'm not saying he won't be, I'm Saying he isn't.

[CookinFlat6]

One things for sure, the more greatness heaped on Seb now after 4 years in a 2 sec car, the more pressure on him to proove himself next year with wherever his car is in the pecking order.

if he looks ordinary, or cant dominate in the 2nd best car then his 'revaluation' will be brutal

[What's Burning?]

The bigger they come, the harder they fall.

[Roth]

What Webber said about Hamilton is nothing new. We all know he's a racer - which in this era is a drawback. Alonso has better racecraft, Vettel is better in a faster car.

[CookinFlat6]

What Webber said about Hamilton is nothing new. We all know he's a racer - which in this era is a drawback. Alonso has better racecraft, Vettel is better in a faster car.

Alonso still got beaten by the rookie Hamilton in equal equipment. And Lewis has never had the fastest car by a mile so its hard to say he couldnt replicate Sebs results in a 2 sec car

Lewis in a transitory season got more out of a Merc that had problems than the incumbent Rosberg who was good enough to retire MS

I reckon Lewis has better racecraft that Alonso and is faster over one lap than Seb.

Next season is a reset and equalisation of sorts that should answer a lot of questions. We can look back to this post halfway through next season and agree on more things I reckon

[Roth]

Hamilton is learning to preserve tires better but it's still a struggle, going against his natural instinct. He also seems to think if you're not in a good (podium) position after the first phase then it's just not your day. He blows his load too early. Alonso bides his time in a race and eeks his way up. Raikkonen is similar. They appear on the podium out of nowhere. Hamilton only holds position or drops back. The regs of the last 5 yrs have been perfect for Vettel and a nightmare for drivers like Hamilton. Like you, I hope next year will swing back to the racers.

[CookinFlat6]

Alonso bides his time in a race and eeks his way up. Raikkonen is similar. They appear on the podium out of nowhere.

Fair enough, but using that method they have absolutely zero chance of beating Seb in a 2 sec car.

Lets not forget that Alonso, biding his time at Abu Dhabi 2010 and eeking his way, got a touch of the heebie jeebies when confronted by a rookie called Petrov who is not even deemed worthy of a drive at the moment

Alonso is your ultimate journeyman, relentless and consistent. He would not have taken on the reigning WDC at the first corner in his first race as a rookie. As for Kimi he has the skill and talent but again is a compromiser, a settler for points, a journeyman

yes the recent F1 era flatters these types, tyre/fuel savers by default because they dont challenge.

Guys like Lewis, Senna, Villenevue, Kobayashi, Kubica will always be the best because they are what the audience want to see, and so the regs will eventually swing back to them

[Jabberwocky]

Alonso is your ultimate journeyman, relentless and consistent. He would not have taken on the reigning WDC at the first corner in his first race as a rookie. As for Kimi he has the skill and talent but again is a compromiser, a settler for points, a journeyman

A championship is not won in one corner or overtake. How you can class Alonso as a journeyman is a wild speculation even for you.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk

[Roth]

Cookin, I agree with almost everything you say but FA and KR aren't journeymen. They're a cut above. Webber was your classic journeyman - a good not great driver with flashes of success - and he was realistic in acknowledging that.

Alonso in Abu Dhabi was just bizarre.

[CookinFlat6]

Cookin, I agree with almost everything you say but FA and KR aren't journeymen. They're a cut above. Webber was your classic journeyman - a good not great driver with flashes of success and he was realistic in acknowledging that.

Alonso in Abu Dhabi was just bizarre.

That's why I said ultimate journeymen. I don't refer to their talent or skill level, more to where they stand in the established division of schools of F1 approach.
The old Prost vs Senna divide. Maybe journeyman is a loaded word and suggests a guy just going through the motions without challenging
I used the word in the sense of the drivers who are focussed on a series of races instead of one race. Prost was good at getting points over a season, Senna was best at winning races

For me it's about races, it's about corners, it's about 1 driver overtaking another. For others it's about the title, about not going for the overtake because of risk of not scoring points towards the title

So in a way I see Alonso Prost and Kimi as ultimate campaigners, careerists, and Lewis, Senna as racers, go for it today. The concept of a world title is derived from race wins and has become all important. This is why Bernie's medals idea was to try encourage journeymen to try harder to win races. Who want a year when the WDC winner doesn't win races but comes third all year, like Alonso's favourite party trick

So I'm not saying Alonso is like Button or Webber, he is like Prost, but unlike Senna in the way he would be happy with 3rd place all year but Senna would go for the win each time. So that's ultimate journeymanism and not the lame, turn up get paid traditional journeyman like button

[What's Burning?]

So by that definition Vettel is a racer.