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[sagi58]

...I'm peed off with the rigging of the F1 rules, the retro rule making, Lewis passes a Ferrari, 'oh lets bring out a new rule after the race, no passing' MS needs to make a late pit stop, 'oh lets move the chequered flag to the pitlane' All that stuff with slipstreaming with Massa and Alonso, thats not sports its a disgrace, using a whole car to help another gain a meaningless advantage AND SCREWING IT UP anyway...

It's called progress. It's called cleaning up the grey areas. It's called making the rules work for you. That's what most organizations do. They look for weak areas and they do what's necessary to strengthen them.

In the relatively little time that I've been watching, there hasn't been a season where rules haven't been changed. There hasn't been a season without some sort of drama or dispute. I have come to the conclusion that's just the way it is in a high profile sport where the stakes are so high!!

[sagi58]

...But what takes the biscuit is when another team actually comes along and plays the on/off track manipulation better, what happens? Ferrari want to take their ball and goal posts home

Pathetic

Might I remind you that Ferrari is the longest standing team in F1!! Might I remind you that Ferrari has the most titles in F1!!
Might I remind you that Ferrari is synonymous with F1 worldwide!! You may not like those particular salient facts; but, they are irrefutable proof that Ferrari is not going any where!!

As for yourself, I have now come to the realization that you simply hate Ferrari and anything to do with them. I will keep that in mind and will avoid trying to explain/defend myself, my allegiance and my team.

Have a great day!!

[bud]

...But what takes the biscuit is when another team actually comes along and plays the on/off track manipulation better, what happens? Ferrari want to take their ball and goal posts home

Pathetic

Might I remind you that Ferrari is the longest standing team in F1!! Might I remind you that Ferrari has the most titles in F1!!
Might I remind you that Ferrari is synonymous with F1 worldwide!! You may not like those particular salient facts; but, they are irrefutable proof that Ferrari is not going any where!!

As for yourself, I have now come to the realization that you simply hate Ferrari and anything to do with them. I will keep that in mind and will avoid trying to explain/defend myself, my allegiance and my team.

Have a great day!!

And I think this response domes up what Cookin was saying earlier about the Tifosi.

[sagi58]

Anyway if anyone could point out true bigotry in my posts or things that could offend or harm anyone then I would be curious to know and apologise. However if its just a knee jerk reaction at voicing some harsh truths then I would point you to my posts on Mclaren, a team from my own country.

Therein lies the difference. When you justifiably criticize your own, as I often do, it comes from understanding the workings of that particular culture and harshness is acceptable because of that familiarity.

However, when you use the expectations and standards of one culture to measure and then criticize another to find it lacking, it crosses the line of fairness and equity.

One example would be religious beliefs. Another would be politics.

That's not to say that when playing on the international field everyone should play by different rules!! However, it would be wise to recognize that what works and is acceptable in one country/culture is not universally adopted and appreciated by others.

[sagi58]

...But what takes the biscuit is when another team actually comes along and plays the on/off track manipulation better, what happens? Ferrari want to take their ball and goal posts home

Pathetic

Might I remind you that Ferrari is the longest standing team in F1!! Might I remind you that Ferrari has the most titles in F1!!
Might I remind you that Ferrari is synonymous with F1 worldwide!! You may not like those particular salient facts; but, they are irrefutable proof that Ferrari is not going any where!!

As for yourself, I have now come to the realization that you simply hate Ferrari and anything to do with them. I will keep that in mind and will avoid trying to explain/defend myself, my allegiance and my team.

Have a great day!!

And I think this response domes up what Cookin was saying earlier about the Tifosi.

Really? I followed his lead. He stated facts, I stated facts.
He suggested that Ferrari goes running away when they don't win.
I stated facts about Ferrari's longevity in the sport and their success within that sport!
At no time did I state that Ferrari is the only team in F1, nor did I allude to the fact
that it's the only team that has had success in F1!!
I have been clear from the beginning that I am a Ferrari fan!! Although I recognize that
we are in the minority on this forum, that doesn't mean I'm going to cower in the corner
and accept having my team denigrated and offended "just because"!!

By the way, thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify my comments, as it's obvious
they weren't perceived as I'd intended!

[CookinFlat6]

...But what takes the biscuit is when another team actually comes along and plays the on/off track manipulation better, what happens? Ferrari want to take their ball and goal posts home

Pathetic

Might I remind you that Ferrari is the longest standing team in F1!! Might I remind you that Ferrari has the most titles in F1!!
Might I remind you that Ferrari is synonymous with F1 worldwide!! You may not like those particular salient facts; but, they are irrefutable proof that Ferrari is not going any where!!

As for yourself, I have now come to the realization that you simply hate Ferrari and anything to do with them. I will keep that in mind and will avoid trying to explain/defend myself, my allegiance and my team.

Have a great day!!

So you remind me of Ferraris past. Then inform me that this makes them different to the other competitors, an inate superiority that should abolish any criticism or scrutiny.
Then despite my having pointed out that I make a distinction between all fans, the team, its contribution to F1 and what I see as an unsporting leadership style
you still feel the need to tell me that what I actually feel about Ferrari is simple hate

its like scientology, anyone asking questions or critiscing the way its run must hate them. 'you are with us or against us, and we are for scientology no matter what our leaders do or say, its ok by us. They are a magical organisation that can do no wrong and are superior, so lump it'

Take this thread for example, its theme is Ferrari vetoing Bernies successor. F1 fan says 'this doesnt sound right, its not fair' Tifosa says 'Its not a full veto so it is fair'
Ferrari are superior, they should be treated better than the rest, why? because its Ferrari and if you complain you are a bigot

[CookinFlat6]

...As far as the fans Ferrari brings, the Tifosi support 'something from Italy' Half the time they dont even care who the driver is, they are not sports supporters, more like nationalistic oiks

I am a "late-blooming" Tifosa, I am of Italian descent and I am probably at the head of the line to criticize "anything Italian" when anyone gets overly Nationalistic on me! So I am quite offended at being lumped into the particularly small-minded group of people to whom you refer.

By the way, Tifosi are not "a cult", they are a group of fans within which, I will admit there is a sub-group of "extremists"; but, they are not the only group of fans to which that premise applies, so you might do well to temper your generalized comments or risk offending all Tifosi.

I'm not saying that you'd lose any sleep over doing so; but, in the end, it's up to you how you want to be perceived: as being fair or being an extremist.

Ok fair enough, that comment could be misconstrued as lumping everyone together, however in my defence I meant and should have said, 'Half the tifosi are not there for the sports, and are there for other reasons and for them the sportsman driving the car is irrelevant because its about fiercely supporting a flag and an ideal - Ferrari'

[1Lemon]

Ferrari International Assistance. Nothing ever changes, especially when Ferrari bosses get to run the FIA; and the FIA is corrupt as the Italian political system anyway.

[operaman]

...But what takes the biscuit is when another team actually comes along and plays the on/off track manipulation better, what happens? Ferrari want to take their ball and goal posts home

Pathetic

Might I remind you that Ferrari is the longest standing team in F1!! Might I remind you that Ferrari has the most titles in F1!!
Might I remind you that Ferrari is synonymous with F1 worldwide!! You may not like those particular salient facts; but, they are irrefutable proof that Ferrari is not going any where!!

As for yourself, I have now come to the realization that you simply hate Ferrari and anything to do with them. I will keep that in mind and will avoid trying to explain/defend myself, my allegiance and my team.

Have a great day!!

But S, consider this ..... the idea that Ferrari deserves special treatment because of longevity in the sport or the number of fans it draws is bogus. Do the Yankees get special treatment? Les Habs? No, of course not. Special treatment for Ferrari because of their fan base reduces F1 to the level of pro wrestling, where match-ups and champions are determined by popularity.

[CookinFlat6]

Maybe it's just a translation issue for the tifosi. Thing is no one is picking on Ferrari, people are just reacting and commenting on the increasingly bizarre news coming out regarding the team. Someone mentioned McLaren trying to get teams dqed after the season as justification for Ferrari. This is not a thread about Ferrari though

If the fIA turned round and said because of history Ferrari were to start each season with 25 points more than the rest, I'm sure even half the tifosi would be embarrassed, especially if they still lost. Thats the same principle we are complaining about.

Also we should all remember that the special assistance and extra money and vetos Ferrari have had over the years have only been made public in the last few years by Bernie, around the same time RBR began to get away with murder wrt rule breaches. In other words although people always hinted Ferrari were favoured, and this was strenuously denied it was going on all along and the other competitors were not told.

If we consider things like a veto on rules that don't suit, and the undefined 'extra help' confirmed by Bernie, it's reasonable to quantify that in terms of points. So it's more than 1 point Ferrari start the season ahead on. Now the real irony is that it's not people attacking Ferrari about this, no, it's Ferrari making a fuss about other teams and actually trying to gain even more advantage from FIA

This is mind boggling stuff when one becomes a bigot for pointing these things out on a thread about these things

It would be almost like a moderator on a forum trying to change the rules because he is not winning an argument fought within the previously stated rules. You start with an advantage but when that's not enough you want the rules changed even more to eliminate other competitors or you just go ahead and change them during the race

What happened to the satisfaction that comes from competing and beating your peers on a level playing field? Would Ferrari fans really be happy if the rules were changed from 'historical team bonus' of 25 points head start to 150? 250? 500?

[sagi58]

...But what takes the biscuit is when another team actually comes along and plays the on/off track manipulation better, what happens? Ferrari want to take their ball and goal posts home

Pathetic

Might I remind you that Ferrari is the longest standing team in F1!! Might I remind you that Ferrari has the most titles in F1!!
Might I remind you that Ferrari is synonymous with F1 worldwide!! You may not like those particular salient facts; but, they are irrefutable proof that Ferrari is not going any where!!

As for yourself, I have now come to the realization that you simply hate Ferrari and anything to do with them. I will keep that in mind and will avoid trying to explain/defend myself, my allegiance and my team.

Have a great day!!

So you remind me of Ferraris past. Then inform me that this makes them different to the other competitors, an inate superiority that should abolish any criticism or scrutiny.

Really? That's what you inferred from my comments? I guess you're right, a translator is necessary!!

Then despite my having pointed out that I make a distinction between all fans, the team, its contribution to F1 and what I see as an unsporting leadership style
you still feel the need to tell me that what I actually feel about Ferrari is simple hate

I hate to be the one to tell you this; but, you were not very convincing in your "distinction" because you simply lumped all Tifosi into one fanatical bunch, which is quite unfair and unnecessary.
It's also very obvious from your constant and continuous snide remarks that Ferrari are less than the dirt beneath your shoes. I get it. And, that's your prerogative; but, then again, it's also my right to disagree with you.

its like scientology, anyone asking questions or critiscing the way its run must hate them. 'you are with us or against us, and we are for scientology no matter what our leaders do or say, its ok by us. They are a magical organisation that can do no wrong and are superior, so lump it'

Ironically, that's exactly how I view your comments!! I guess it's all about perspective, eh?

[LRW]

for my sanity - can you stop using the wavey smiley please?

[sagi58]

...By the way, Tifosi are not "a cult", they are a group of fans within which, I will admit there is a sub-group of "extremists"; but, they are not the only group of fans to which that premise applies, so you might do well to temper your generalized comments or risk offending all Tifosi.

I'm not saying that you'd lose any sleep over doing so; but, in the end, it's up to you how you want to be perceived: as being fair or being an extremist.

Ok fair enough, that comment could be misconstrued as lumping everyone together, however in my defence I meant and should have said, 'Half the tifosi are not there for the sports, and are there for other reasons and for them the sportsman driving the car is irrelevant because its about fiercely supporting a flag and an ideal - Ferrari'

"Half the tifosi"? You actually know that many Ferrari fans? Or, no, maybe you've conducted a survey and those are the results?
I have to say, I'm tired of having to defend myself and my team to you! I think I'll just ignore the denigrating comments... for now!!

p.s. if you ever decide on making a career change, consider litigation, I think you'd have much success!!

[sagi58]

for my sanity - can you stop using the wavey smiley please?

Sure!!

oooops... I did it again!! Sorry!!

[CookinFlat6]

...By the way, Tifosi are not "a cult", they are a group of fans within which, I will admit there is a sub-group of "extremists"; but, they are not the only group of fans to which that premise applies, so you might do well to temper your generalized comments or risk offending all Tifosi.

I'm not saying that you'd lose any sleep over doing so; but, in the end, it's up to you how you want to be perceived: as being fair or being an extremist.

Ok fair enough, that comment could be misconstrued as lumping everyone together, however in my defence I meant and should have said, 'Half the tifosi are not there for the sports, and are there for other reasons and for them the sportsman driving the car is irrelevant because its about fiercely supporting a flag and an ideal - Ferrari'

"Half the tifosi"? You actually know that many Ferrari fans? Or, no, maybe you've conducted a survey and those are the results?
I have to say, I'm tired of having to defend myself and my team to you! I think I'll just ignore the denigrating comments... for now!!

p.s. if you ever decide on making a career change, consider litigation, I think you'd have much success!!

Are litigators not the ones who ignore pertinent questions and focus on technicalities? For example instead of complain about denigrating comments why not just answer the pertinent questions and put your side of the debate.

try this one which relates to this specific thread;

What happened to the satisfaction that comes from competing and beating your peers on a level playing field? Would Ferrari fans really be happy if the rules were changed from 'historical team bonus' of 25 points head start to 150? 250? 500?