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[spankyham]

No one brings fans to F1. F1 brings fans to Ferrari - thats their whole raison d'etre - they are in F1 to sell cars, therefore F1 brings business to Ferrari

Ferrari brings fans, and what's more brings most fans.

...Let us know which sport pays one team more regardless of performance

Other sport teams make money out of their fan base size. AFL Collingwood make by far most because they have the biggest fan base, they get to use biggest and best venues and best dates and times for their matches. Ditto heaps of other sports.

... frustration from team, drivers and fans...

Yep, some people get frustrated by the long term success of Ferrari, and their ability to negotiate better deals, some people just hate Ferrari for their past success and their views are extremely bigoted - as I said a few times before, that lot can go cry me yet another river.

...They got a record fine, paid and are still there......

They committed a record crime
They didn't have to pay money out of their pocket (they were allowed to offset against Concorde earnings) so the fine wasn't a real fine.
They were allowed to keep and use the stolen goods

Nothing changes that and the other facts you posted....

We agree on this

The record books tell us that McLaren won the WDC the year after their record fine.

Agreed, the penalty/fine had zero effect

[operaman]

A common theme with Ferrari is the historical importance of the Scuderia as justification for special treatment, including political and monetary favours. The Chicago Bears are 1 of only 2 original NFL teams (the other is St. Louis). Do they receive any political or monetary favours for being founding members? No. The Toronto Arenas (now the Leafs) are 1 of the original members of the NHL. Do they receive any political or monetary favours? No. The Cincinnati Reds tenure in MLB goes back to the 1840's, yet they have no special status in MLB.

Giving any team advantages based on their longevity in the sport is totally bogus. It is time for F1 to call Ferrari on their threats to leave the sport, and allow the teams to compete on an equal basis. Holding the sport hostage as they have done is deplorable. Let them go, and those crybaby fans that are not fans of the sport can go with them.

[CookinFlat6]

The record books tell us that McLaren won the WDC the year after their record fine.

Agreed, the penalty/fine had zero effect

The penalty had no effect on McLarens ability to beat Ferrari. The McLaren of 2008 had no Ferrari Ip and beat Ferrari. Ferrari only won the WCC in 2007 because it was handed to them, they have won nothing without FIA help

[CookinFlat6]

A common theme with Ferrari is the historical importance of the Scuderia as justification for special treatment, including political and monetary favours. The Chicago Bears are 1 of only 2 original NFL teams (the other is St. Louis). Do they receive any political or monetary favours for being founding members? No. The Toronto Arenas (now the Leafs) are 1 of the original members of the NHL. Do they receive any political or monetary favours? No. The Cincinnati Reds tenure in MLB goes back to the 1840's, yet they have no special status in MLB.

Giving any team advantages based on their longevity in the sport is totally bogus. It is time for F1 to call Ferrari on their threats to leave the sport, and allow the teams to compete on an equal basis. Holding the sport hostage as they have done is deplorable. Let them go, and those crybaby fans that are not fans of the sport can go with them.

Thee crybabies are the ones who threaten to take the football and goal posts home if they are not allowed to win

As far as the fans Ferrari brings, the Tifosi support 'something from Italy' Half the time they dont even care who the driver is, they are not sports supporters, more like nationalistic oiks

[sagi58]

If it was raining outside and Bob came inside wet would your logic say that he was wet because of things that went on in a secret meeting somewhere yet it was speculation to make a cause and effect link between the 2 facts: it's raining and bob got wet

Fact; Ferrari are uniquely assisted by the FIA
Fact; the FIA had discretion over the punishment and they hadn't similarly punished others previously
Fact; Ferrari was the biggest beneficiary of Mclarens punishment

But let's use logic from Venus and call casual linking of those facts mere speculation and claim other unknown facts from a secret meeting as valid

When it rains, people do get wet

What a ridiculous example!! I expected you to come up with something much more equitable;
but, then again, using logic from Mars is about seeing things as black and white, without all the
nuances of grey in between!! Again, none of us knows, for certain, why that fine was levied;
but, it was. And Ron Dennis stepped down, which confirms that something else was in the mix.

By the way, people also get wet when it does not rain; but, that doesn't mean you can always
blame the clouds, eh??

[sagi58]

...As far as the fans Ferrari brings, the Tifosi support 'something from Italy' Half the time they dont even care who the driver is, they are not sports supporters, more like nationalistic oiks

There you have it, racism at its finest!
Thanks, eh?

[spankyham]

...As far as the fans Ferrari brings, the Tifosi support 'something from Italy' Half the time they dont even care who the driver is, they are not sports supporters, more like nationalistic oiks

There you have it, racism at its finest!
Thanks, eh?

Sadly you're right.

[spankyham]

A common theme with Ferrari is the historical importance of the Scuderia as justification for special treatment, including political and monetary favours. The Chicago Bears are 1 of only 2 original NFL teams (the other is St. Louis). Do they receive any political or monetary favours for being founding members? No. The Toronto Arenas (now the Leafs) are 1 of the original members of the NHL. Do they receive any political or monetary favours? No. The Cincinnati Reds tenure in MLB goes back to the 1840's, yet they have no special status in MLB.

Giving any team advantages based on their longevity in the sport is totally bogus. It is time for F1 to call Ferrari on their threats to leave the sport, and allow the teams to compete on an equal basis. Holding the sport hostage as they have done is deplorable. Let them go, and those crybaby fans that are not fans of the sport can go with them.

I'm more than happy with the great deals Ferrari have leveraged. I hope they continue and improve on it. IMO Ferrari rightfully get advantage from their massive fan base.

It is a bigoted view to resent Ferrari because of their success and their fan-base. It doesn't do anyone justice to attack the Tifosi because they are such good fans of their team.

[CookinFlat6]

Ok I might have been a little unclear. Firstly I dont mean to insult any Tifosi and I have no problem with their loyalty and support for their tam. secondly I have nothing against Ferrari, its cars, its history and what its given to motor racing.

My issue is with the concept of 'die for Ferrari, Ferrari above all others' and the concept of Ferrari and the concept of the Tifosi. Sports should not be about politics but about competition between peers.

The concept of Ferrari/Tifosi the cult is not in my opinion all about sports. I think it is outrageous that a team can pull the tricks Ferrari has over the years and still remain favoured because of nostalgia. Win at all costs etc and the sense of entitlement is just not a part of the Corinthian values that sports wants to adhere to. Why? because sports has a duty to all the audience not just a stage for 1 competitor to preen and bully and manipulate. Things like trying to win on technicalities after the season go beyond the pale.

Lets be clear on this, F1 is not a proper sport because of the comercial structure, its more a show thats tweeked to produce profits. The very least you would want out of it for contributing and paying is some real competition according to rules that are transparent to all. When we pay for something thats rigged, at least let the rigging stop when the cars are on track, at least dont rub it in our faces with the collusion and underhand favouritism of one team. And when the team turns round and acts as if they are the rule maker, interfering, getting others fined, general bullying its too much.

Montezemolo is said to be using his current position as a springboard into Italian politics, well please leave already. like Berlusconi and his football teams, sports is an easy way of gaining political currency as long as the people are not allowed to think but are opiated by a cult.

I find the whole notion of Azzuri and Tifosi repugnant. And its not difficult to see its parallels in history and its link with politics.

So in conclusion, I have nothing bad to say about Ferrari, its supporters, Italians (especially the girls in Milan), I am just peed off with Montezemola, Ecclestone, the concept of Tifosi who should bleed for ferrari and ask no questions, just blindly support and go to war if asked etc etc

I'm peed off with the rigging of the F1 rules, the retro rule making, Lewis passes a Ferrari, 'oh lets bring out a new rule after the race, no passing' MS needs to make a late pit stop, 'oh lets move the chequered flag to the pitlane' All that stuff with slipstreaming with Massa and Alonso, thats not sports its a disgrace, using a whole car to help another gain a meaningless advantage AND SCREWING IT UP anyway

And I dont resent Ferraris past success, or just pick on Ferrari, we should all critisce our own favourite teams if they mess up, not just be opiated by nostalgia and some magical feelings and turn a blind eye to mediocrity. We should demand the highest quality of sports, we pay for it, its for our benefit and not for the benefit of some cult or wannabe politicians

But what takes the biscuit is when another team actually comes along and plays the on/off track manipulation better, what happens? Ferrari want to take their ball and goal posts home

Pathetic

[bud]

Well said Cooking!

[racechick]

I have to agree. 'No driver is bigger than Ferrari' we hear the cry, Fair comment. But no team is bigger than the sport!

...They got a record fine, paid and are still there......

They committed a record crime

No they didn't. intellectual property has moved between teams since the sport began. Do TP's moving team 'forget' everything when they go?
And you ignore the fact that Renault had McLaren intellectual stuff ON THE CAR! The very same year, and it was ignored. And there was the Spyker/ Toyota thing( can't remember details ) where pictures were being openly shown in the pitlane. THE VERY SAME YEAR. Unfair, unjust. Why???

[spankyham]

:yes: I have to agree. 'No driver is bigger than Ferrari' we hear the cry, Fair comment. But no team is bigger than the sport!

I think you are on the right wavelength here RC. I don't think I've ever claimed Ferrari is bigger than F1, what I've said is they have the biggest fan-base and there are benefits associated with that.

...They got a record fine, paid and are still there......

They committed a record crime

No they didn't. intellectual property has moved between teams since the sport began. Do TP's moving team 'forget' everything when they go?
And you ignore the fact that Renault had McLaren intellectual stuff ON THE CAR! The very same year, and it was ignored. And there was the Spyker/ Toyota thing( can't remember details ) where pictures were being openly shown in the pitlane. THE VERY SAME YEAR. Unfair, unjust. Why???

I can see your point, and its clear your passionate about it. I can respect that. I can also respect that you don't bring bigotry or race into it. That only gives more weight to your points.

I do think you have a point, the FiA yet again didn't treat teams and violations the same, and that isn't right, I support your position on that.

One area I don't agree with you on is the IP. My experience living and working daily in an industry devoutly committed to IP, is that what McLaren received and used was a big mistake on their behalf. They gave the FiA a lot of ammunition by deny stuff and getting caught out, that made things worse for them IMO.

You and I disagree on whether the punishment McLaren got was severe enough - fair enough. But we both move on from it without resorting to vilification or abuse. There a lesson to members here, in our example of how to discuss a topic that evokes passion without resorting to abuse. Others can take this as a warning that sailing close to that edge could prove costly if they overstepped it

[CookinFlat6]

No they didn't. intellectual property has moved between teams since the sport began. Do TP's moving team 'forget' everything when they go?
And you ignore the fact that Renault had McLaren intellectual stuff ON THE CAR! The very same year, and it was ignored. And there was the Spyker/ Toyota thing( can't remember details ) where pictures were being openly shown in the pitlane. THE VERY SAME YEAR. Unfair, unjust. Why???

I can see your point, and its clear your passionate about it. I can respect that. I can also respect that you don't bring bigotry or race into it. That only gives more weight to your points.

I do not see how pointing to a certain bigotry, unsporting and inapprorpriate mandate by the current Ferrari leadership can be called bigotry. I am pointing to what I perceive as a bigotry and arrogance towards their fellow competitors. I have produced facts and a reasonable argument to support this. I have made a distinction between loyal supporters, entire populations and their leaders. Who even mentioned race? Are the tifosi now a race of their own?

It would be a shame if mentioning or questioning things becomes difficult for fear of being called racist. it would mean the real racists have a screen protecting them.

Anyway if anyone could point out true bigotry in my posts or things that could offend or harm anyone then I would be curious to know and apologise. However if its just a knee jerk reaction at voicing some harsh truths then I would point you to my posts on Mclaren, a team from my own country.

[sagi58]

Ok I might have been a little unclear. Firstly I dont mean to insult any Tifosi and I have no problem with their loyalty and support for their tam. secondly I have nothing against Ferrari, its cars, its history and what its given to motor racing.

You did a pretty good impression of "hating" anything Ferrari / Italian, so you will have to forgive me for coming to that conclusion after reading this:

...As far as the fans Ferrari brings, the Tifosi support 'something from Italy' Half the time they dont even care who the driver is, they are not sports supporters, more like nationalistic oiks

I am a "late-blooming" Tifosa, I am of Italian descent and I am probably at the head of the line to criticize "anything Italian" when anyone gets overly Nationalistic on me! So I am quite offended at being lumped into the particularly small-minded group of people to whom you refer.

By the way, Tifosi are not "a cult", they are a group of fans within which, I will admit there is a sub-group of "extremists"; but, they are not the only group of fans to which that premise applies, so you might do well to temper your generalized comments or risk offending all Tifosi.

I'm not saying that you'd lose any sleep over doing so; but, in the end, it's up to you how you want to be perceived: as being fair or being an extremist.

[sagi58]

...Things like trying to win on technicalities after the season go beyond the pale...

I see... I guess, as far as you're concerned, it's only Ferrari that does what it needs to do to win championships? Let me remind you of one instance that I am aware of, since it's not been so long that I've been following F1:

Staff  wrote:">McLaren submit Brazil GP appeal

Lewis Hamilton still has a slim chance of taking the F1 title after McLaren lodged an appeal against a decision not to punish two other teams in Brazil.

Ferrari's Kimi Raikkonen won the race to edge out Hamilton, who finished seventh, for the drivers' championship.

Race stewards then investigated alleged fuel irregularities by Williams and BMW Sauber, but decided not to punish them.

Had they been disqualified, Hamilton would have finished fourth, earning him enough points to become world champion.

That was the infamous "cool fuel" allegations that McLaren tried using to disqualify not one, not two but three drivers in order to give Hamilton the title! But, that wasn't Ferrari was it? No, that was McLaren and that was Hamilton, so it was ok to pull that stunt, I guess!!