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[spankyham]

I guess this thread will be pretty much only rumors for a while.

A fair bit of interest has been generated by this video...

[youtube]pXNLQQC_AGU[/youtube]

[spankyham]

I've had a bit of time to think about this video.

First thought is I don't think we can be sure this is our F1 engine, but I do now think the LaFerrari seen is indeed a specific mule made to test the F1 and LMP engines.

Next, Ferrari must have had this idea quite a while ago, as this would entail a lot of very specific engineering. I'd say at a minimum you'd need the complete rear drive and suspension stuck in the LaFerrari. So, I think this is a very clever move. Ferrari will get to do a lot of miles with the F1 and LMP drive trains so lots of valuable information that cannot be obtained from a dyno and a definitive validation point for all the computer modeling - invaluable stuff really. I'm not sure even the biggest budget other teams will have time to copy this.

Consider who designed the LaFerrari and who has also ben working, since 2012, on our 2014 car - Rory. There are lots of chassis mods in the LaFerrari that come directly from F1. Given that Ferrari will get to run the Pirelli tires in two weeks at Bahrain on the F138, we will definitely get some great computer data and cross referencing for 2014.

So whilst there is probably little aero information to be gained from the LaFerrari mule, there is a lot of mechanical data that will definitely be garnered. Suspension and all the drive train including the engine and gearbox, and, you can bet that LaFerrari will have 2 different rear sections, an 2014 F1 rig and an Peugeot rig.

This is a huge advantage for Ferrari. Well thought through and, most importantly, kept very quiet.

I've been listening carefully and there is definitely very silent moments for the engine under braking - I'm guessing fuel conservation stuff.

[What's Burning?]

I've been expecting this since the news broke out months ago about Ferrari entering an LMP1 variant with the turbo V6. Like you've already said, invaluable information as to the "workings" of the entire package.

[sagi58]

So, basically, we are using the rules to work to our advantage?

F.I.N.A.L.L.Y.??

[spankyham]

Ferrari's Pat Fry doubts major engine differences in 2014


Ferrari technical boss Pat Fry on Friday said he doubts one engine maker will get a big head start on its rivals in 2014.

There are paddock rumours that suggest Mercedes will have up to a 100 horse power advantage over engine rivals Ferrari and Renault with its new turbo V6 technology.

On the other hand, it has been said Ferrari is delighted with the 2014 rules, because it gives the Italian marque a chance to impress with its expertise in engine design, after an era mostly obsessed with aerodynamic gains.

Fry, however, told Germany's Auto Motor und Sport: "Aerodynamics will be as important next year as it was in the last 15 years."

He thinks outright engine power and performance will not be the crucial factor.

"The differences between the different engines will mainly be determined by reliability," said the Briton.

"The technology is so complex that five units per driver is really very little. I believe large differences performance-wise will not arise -- perhaps in the race, when the fuel consumption determines the power."

At the same time, Fry thinks it is possible the start of the new era in 2014 will open the door to a major technical innovation, a la the double diffuser of 2009.

"The aerodynamic regulations are pretty clear," he said, "but I do see a few ways to interpret things differently.

"There will be solutions that have not previously been seen," revealed Fry.

Meanwhile, after Red Bull's Adrian Newey admitted his 2014 car is 'ugly', Fry refused to say the next scarlet single seater will be similarly unseemly.

"If it wins," he smiled, "then no."

[spankyham]

One rumour going around is that Ferrari will drop the pull rod front suspension and go back to push rod.

Pat Fry also signals that the "drive train" part of the new regs are open to interpretation and will see different/new solutions on show in 2014.

Engine max power not as relevant as reliability and fuel conservation to be a greater determinant on race usable power.

[What's Burning?]

ERS fairlure will mean a car that's 150 hp down... you're being lapped by Marussia if it fails. I'm welcoming the new regs. Of course aerodynamics will be just as important as it has for the last fiftenn years, it just won't allow you to use exhaust gasses to blow into a rear diffuse to gain extra downforce. That's the only thing really changing.

What I'm curious about is if we'll see team still try to gain air flow under the car, ergo the "ugly" reference. Or if we'll see teams closing off the bottom of the car and getting the air to move over it entirely. We might see two entirely different schools of thought. I'm so excited.

[spankyham]

They can still blow the monkey - loved writing that - the monkey seat that is. I doubt any team will give up the floor as a source of df because floor generated df is so much better. Aero will possibly be more important now with focus on floor, pods and fw end-plates

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Tapatalk

[What's Burning?]

There's no lower wing, the monkey seat is tiny by comparison, and you can't blow something that's in front of the exhaust. There can be no bodywork beyond the plane of the exhaust end. I think they've made it very difficult to use the exhaust for anything other than to get rid of the hot air. I think unlike the loophole around the DDD in 2009, they won't allow another loophole. I think any aero gains, they'll have to get the ol' fashioned way.

[spankyham]

There's no lower wing, the monkey seat is tiny by comparison, and you can't blow something that's in front of the exhaust. There can be no bodywork beyond the plane of the exhaust end. I think they've made it very difficult to use the exhaust for anything other than to get rid of the hot air. I think unlike the loophole around the DDD in 2009, they won't allow another loophole. I think any aero gains, they'll have to get the ol' fashioned way.

I'm pretty sure the monkey seat will be in position to be effected by the exhaust. Yes, small in comparison to the parts they had previously blown, but I think we will see efforts there.

Fry seems to think the drive-train regs have loopholes to be exploited

[What's Burning?]

There's no lower wing, the monkey seat is tiny by comparison, and you can't blow something that's in front of the exhaust. There can be no bodywork beyond the plane of the exhaust end. I think they've made it very difficult to use the exhaust for anything other than to get rid of the hot air. I think unlike the loophole around the DDD in 2009, they won't allow another loophole. I think any aero gains, they'll have to get the ol' fashioned way.

I'm pretty sure the monkey seat will be in position to be effected by the exhaust. Yes, small in comparison to the parts they had previously blown, but I think we will see efforts there.

Fry seems to think the drive-train regs have loopholes to be exploited

No bodywork behind the tail pipe axis, Single central exhaust pipe exiting 17-18.5cm behind rear axle line and 300-525mm high
This is just the summary, unless they start slicing an dicing the definitions, that's pretty clear.

BTW, I was mistaken, it's 100kg of fuel, not 100 liters. So flow is likely the biggest limiting factor.

[spankyham]

.... BTW, I was mistaken, it's 100kg of fuel, not 100 liters. So flow is likely the biggest limiting factor.

I can't see how flow won't have a massive effect. Max power at max flow which would see fuel gone in an hour. Given the cars will be slower, that leaves about 30 to 40 minutes with no fuel. So cars can run at max power for a few minutes and the rest of the race in conservation modes. So even if someone has a massive max power advantage it will be worthless compared to a car that is reasonably powerful in conserve mode. I sincerely hope we don't have the joke of tire conservation replaced with the joke of fuel conservation - wait a minute, didn't I already say that somewhere

[sagi58]

Hey, you guys... I've read and re-read and read what you've both written.
Just wondering, could you translate it for me?

That is, are we gonna be fast?

[spankyham]

Hey, you guys... I've read and re-read and read what you've both written.
Just wondering, could you translate it for me?

That is, are we gonna be fast?

How fast over one lap and how fast over race distance are two different things.

Over one lap, you have unlimited energy at the max allowable flow rate. So you can run the energy flow rate at 100% for the full lap. So you can set your engine to produce the max power it can for the full distance and time of one lap.

Over a whole race, if you run at the max flow rate, you will run out of fuel a little over half way through the race. So, during the race, you have to run at a lesser flow rate to ensure you have enough fuel to make it to the end. So, for most of the race, you can't run your car at its maximum capable power rate. So, teams that focus on max power output will do well in Q but, during the race, they won't get to use that power capability. Teams that focus on reasonable power while saving fuel (remember the farce we had this year when drivers were told not to race each other because the guy behind was on a "different tire strategy") will do better over the race distance. I just hope we don't have more seasons of drivers being unable to drive at their max of their skills because they have to conserve. A blooming joke if that's what we end up with from this ludicrous driving F1 to be more street car relevant and budget restricted to help weak and substandard teams stay in F1.

[sagi58]

Thanks, Spanky!!

Basically, all teams need to find the optimum "middle ground" between the two?
Mind, if I had to choose, I'd be focussing on the race, rather than a lap, no?