FORUMula1.com

[Jabberwocky]

Here's an idea, teams can spend whatever they like, but every dollar spent over 100 million they'd have to provide the equivalent amount spread over the bottom four teams. That would help both ends of the grid.

So a team like McLaren spend $300M and then have to give $200M to the lower teams? I think that would bankrupt even the high end teams.

The number is arbitrary so don't pay too much attention to it, it's the idea that would sell. Anyway, no one is telling them to spend that much. Plus imagine the boost downgrid!

The numbers can get hidden just like finding ways around the RRA

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[What's Burning?]

Here's an idea, teams can spend whatever they like, but every dollar spent over 100 million they'd have to provide the equivalent amount spread over the bottom four teams. That would help both ends of the grid.

So a team like McLaren spend $300M and then have to give $200M to the lower teams? I think that would bankrupt even the high end teams.

The number is arbitrary so don't pay too much attention to it, it's the idea that would sell. Anyway, no one is telling them to spend that much. Plus imagine the boost downgrid!

The numbers can get hidden just like finding ways around the RRA

yeah, that's the issue isn't it? Otherwise a straight cap would work. it's just a bit of an altruistic habit of mine to come up with ideas for the perfect world.

[spankyham]

Two things

1) No matter how you try to present it, caps in F1 will always equal creativity restrictions. That is the antithesis of what F1 is all about. If you can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen. No cap with the simplest restrictions.

2) It is a pile of BS that you can't win with a smaller budget. It has been proven over and over again.

You only have to go back to the days of the Garargista's with their tiny budgets beating Ferrari amongst others. They came from nowhere to top of the grid and ushered in a decade of British dominance. Why? Because there were simple rules in place. Their engineers created the rear mounted engine and they were politically savvy enough to push a rule change to reduce the race length from ~500Klms to the current 300Klms.

Here's a simple set of rules that I think we could replace a huge swag of the current regs with that would works. Keep the aero definitions for 2014 then replace all the drive stuff with this:-
- Each team gets 5000 litres of fuel at the start of the year
- Each team gets 350 litres at each event (race). What they don't use of the 350, they have to hand back after the race.

[acosmichippo]

I think you're ignoring the fact that pretty much all teams want a budget cap, even Ferrari. They just can't agree on a method to police it.

And while your fuel limit proposal would be interesting, I disagree with your assertion that low-budget teams can legitimately compete with the likes of Red Bull, Merc, or Ferrari. Back in the day sure, but now... I don't think so. It takes a major fluke for a team lower than fourth in the championship to just get a podium.

[What's Burning?]

Garagistas today need 300 million dollar wind tunnel facilities and 100 million dollar autoclaves just to be able to hang with the big boys let alone hope to beat them. We're in agreement that F1 is no longer feels like the vanguard of technology but it's also insane to spend the amounts of money being spent all to get around stifling regulations.

[spankyham]

Garagistas today need 300 million dollar wind tunnel facilities and 100 million dollar autoclaves just to be able to hang with the big boys let alone hope to beat them. We're in agreement that F1 is no longer feels like the vanguard of technology but it's also insane to spend the amounts of money being spent all to get around stifling regulations.

If teams justify their expenditure to their shareholders/owners then so be it, that should be what governs each team's limit. I don't know why we worry about how much Ferrari or Red Bull or Mercedes are willing to spend to entertain us as fans. I care about the entertainment, and of course I like my team to win

And if an HRT or some other unknown mob can't compete, then WTF are they hanging around F1?

[spankyham]

I think you're ignoring the fact that pretty much all teams want a budget cap, even Ferrari. They just can't agree on a method to police it.

Ferrari would stay in F1 if there was no cap, as would all the main teams.

And while your fuel limit proposal would be interesting

Glad you like it

I disagree with your assertion that low-budget teams can legitimately compete with the likes of Red Bull, Merc, or Ferrari.

I don't want or care for teams that can't provide what it takes to compete at what should be the leading edge of motor racing - let them go join some other competition.

Back in the day sure, but now... I don't think so. It takes a major fluke for a team lower than fourth in the championship to just get a podium.

You're so right in what you've posted, I just don't think you've quite realized it.
Back in the day (when there were simple rules and no artificial limits) teams could make quantum moves
but now .... (when there are super complicated rules that make almost everything prescribed and homogenise almost everything) teams can't move change their position in the pecking order.
Soooooooooooo ...... feck off all the rules that you can and you will see clever people given the chance to create stuff that millions of dollars couldn't find.

[Denthúl]

I don't want or care for teams that can't provide what it takes to compete at what should be the leading edge of motor racing - let them go join some other competition.

So you'd be happy with a 3-4 team series?

[CookinFlat6]

.
Back in the day (when there were simple rules and no artificial limits) teams could make quantum moves
but now .... (when there are super complicated rules that make almost everything prescribed and homogenise almost everything) teams can't move change their position in the pecking order.
Soooooooooooo ...... feck off all the rules that you can and you will see clever people given the chance to create stuff that millions of dollars couldn't find.

Back in those days the development curve was a lot steeper. There was still performance to be found in the straightforward engineering. Since the old turbos rules had to be brought in to stop cars going beyond the drivers organic and biological limits.

If it was a free for all with no regulations, we would have carbon fibre 1 litre supercharged twin turbo monsters developing 2000 bhp controlled by active suspension and pulling 6gs round corners. With all the development money spent on stopping them from taking off on the straights

[Jabberwocky]

.
Back in the day (when there were simple rules and no artificial limits) teams could make quantum moves
but now .... (when there are super complicated rules that make almost everything prescribed and homogenise almost everything) teams can't move change their position in the pecking order.
Soooooooooooo ...... feck off all the rules that you can and you will see clever people given the chance to create stuff that millions of dollars couldn't find.

Back in those days the development curve was a lot steeper. There was still performance to be found in the straightforward engineering. Since the old turbos rules had to be brought in to stop cars going beyond the drivers organic and biological limits.

If it was a free for all with no regulations, we would have carbon fibre 1 litre supercharged twin turbo monsters developing 2000 bhp controlled by active suspension and pulling 6gs round corners. With all the development money spent on stopping them from taking off on the straights

I don't see a problem with that type of car!

To be fair I don't think a competitive F1 car could be built in a garage attached to a 2 up 2 down in Hounslow anymore

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[CookinFlat6]

I think its all very well to want F1 to be a series where the most technological developments and creativity is unleashed. However in todays real world there is no economic sense. Unless governemnts sponsor a national team and it becomes a source of national competition.

There is no profit in spending 1 billion to market your cars on the back of F1 prowess. I think we have to accept that the F1 model as a technological show piece is flawed if it remains a competition amongst corporations. And once there are only 2 teams, one will give up if the cost is too high just to beat the other.

The best solution that we wont like has to be making all the expensive bits according to a spec supplied by 1 or 2 firms, engines, gearboxes, chassis, ers etc. And then let the creativity flourish within those constraints.

Then any team with a certain amount can participate and depending on how creative their staff are with the few areas left, can actually make a difference with innovation, management and ofcourse (what we really want to see) the best drivers. Cant afford the best drivers? promote juniors, encourage rookies

[sagi58]

Why hasn't someone mentioned an "obvious" expenditure that can be easily mandated?

There should be a cap imposed on driver salaries!! IF they make more from other sources,
such as endorsements, all the more power to them!! A salary cap may also inspire teams
to go out looking for more sponsors.

Win (teams)- win (drivers)- win (sponsors)- WIN (fans), eh?

[sagi58]

I think all those that want to watch production-car based, creativity-capped and spending-restricted motor racing should go watch any of the plethora of that racing that already exist. Feck-off and leave F1 for:-
- the big boys to compete and
- the fans that want true leading edge racing to watch.

[What's Burning?]

Why hasn't someone mentioned an "obvious" expenditure that can be easily mandated?

There should be a cap imposed on driver salaries!! IF they make more from other sources,
such as endorsements, all the more power to them!! A salary cap may also inspire teams
to go out looking for more sponsors.

Win (teams)- win (drivers)- win (sponsors)- WIN (fans), eh?

Why not cap Bernie's profit? The driver's are the ones risking their lives, screw a driver's salary cap.

[What's Burning?]

Sounds like Spanky would be okay with Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes having 7 cars on the grid each.