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[What's Burning?]

The tire situation alone certainly demands more testing.

[spankyham]

can Ferrari only win by having 365 testing sessions when Lotus can only afford 36?

Ferrari won their titles because they were innovative, had a great team, were committed, built a great car, had great drivers, and took the lucky breaks they got. Ferrari had their own test track from '83 to '99.

Messi should be told be can only use a football and practice for one hour a week. The only way he wins all those awards is because he practices all the time.

[Hammer278]

can Ferrari only win by having 365 testing sessions when Lotus can only afford 36?

Ferrari won their titles because they were innovative, had a great team, were committed, built a great car, had great drivers, and took the lucky breaks they got. Ferrari had their own test track from '83 to '99.

Messi should be told be can only use a football and practice for one hour a week. The only way he wins all those awards is because he practices all the time.

The bolded part is basically the crux of it...innovative, were committed, built a great car, had great drivers can be applied to other teams as well, like McLaren and Williams at the time. It's just a very strong race management which helped Ferrari to those titles. McLaren were pretty innovative with their 3rd pedal, Mercedes using some innovation with Beryllium and of course these innovative features conveniently being banned thanks to Ferrari's constant whinging.

Redbull have basically picked up Ferrari's baton of the past and doing exactly what Ferrari were doing to the rest of the field back in the 2000s....great team, great political pull and power. It's up to the rest to up their game with the same rules applied across the board/grid.

[CookinFlat6]

can Ferrari only win by having 365 testing sessions when Lotus can only afford 36?

Ferrari won their titles because they were innovative, had a great team, were committed, built a great car, had great drivers, and took the lucky breaks they got. Ferrari had their own test track from '83 to '99.

Messi should be told be can only use a football and practice for one hour a week. The only way he wins all those awards is because he practices all the time.

There is no denying Ferraris quality and its success in the past. We are talking about recently and going forward. Maybe I should have said 'is Ferrari no longer able to beat the likes of Lotus without the testing and financial advantage'
The imlication is clear the more the push for more testing and no cost caps. As Hammer put it, RBR have found a way to play the system, the system that has next to no testing, and Ferrari havent.

Anyway lotus may yet not even make the grid next year so thats one less worry for Ferrari

[CookinFlat6]

This is probably a good indicator of the difference between Ron and Whitmarshs leadership of McLaren

Even after 25 years I find that difficult to deal with - I know I shouldn’t, but I am still hopelessly naive. I still think that if you look somebody in the eye and shake hands then that’s a done deal.

‘When it turns out like in the Magnussen case, then I am shocked - and I tell myself “learn, don’t be naïve”. So having to face this situation, I decided let’s go for it with Kevin ourselves.’

So Perez got stitched instead.

‘But I also said to him: “Your only threat is from within - from our young drivers.” I don’t think he took that as seriously as he maybe should have.’

Maybe it would have been better to keep this revelation within the team. TP is shocked by the ruthlessness of F1 and thought it was full of decency.
This is ofcourse released just after Ron is reported to have bad mouthed his own WDC to Mercedes to try sour the deal and prevent him leaving for his dream job.

And farce threatens to turn to comedy when Perez delivers his parting shot

"The team made the decision they did. I hope I can stand here next year and say leaving McLaren was the best thing that could have happened to me."

Would be good for the team if Perez did make the podium tomorrow

[1Lemon]

I thought they had no hope in hell of getting on the podium, that's what you said about Button and McLaren.

[NHcheese]

Podium hopes have been dashed by starting positions tommorow.

[sagi58]

It's impossible to police budget caps.

Bravo!!

Anyone who has "studied" accounting can come up with a number of creative methods to "budget"!!

So you admit its impossible to police a mandated (non voluntary) budget cap, and you admit that most of the grid would disappear if costs increase, yet you want the one area costs have been able to be implemented across the board removed?

If no unlimited testing where does the costs/benefit slope peak? 2, 3, 10, 20 extra sessions?

Whats wrong with the 3 practice sessions that already exist. What would 3 extra practice sessions prove, Ferrari would want more because their only chance is to outspend teams like Lotus. If Lotus can live with the 3 FPs, why cant Ferrari beat them on track despite poaching their drivers and engineers?

can Ferrari only win by having 365 testing sessions when Lotus can only afford 36?

Hmmn, doesnt bode well for 2014

Yes... a budget cap would be nearly impossible to enforce, considering how easily numbers can be manipulated.
Yes... UN-limited testing would put many teams on the back foot, financially and developmentally.

BUT... allowing teams to test, after a set number of race weekends, seems to be a feasible compromise.
I would suggest that the teams be "allowed" to test, NOT "forced" to test. There are teams who seem to be
happy with their electro-techno gizmos, so they may opt not to test! Other teams may choose a combination!

What I am basically saying is that teams should have the OPTION...

p.s. you really do have it in for Ferrari, eh? Well, that's your prerogative, just as it's mine to support them!!

[sagi58]

It's not that I want it "so badly" so much as I recognize that it's essential to success in pretty well any sport!!
You wouldn't have a baseball player go up to bat, without extra batting practice, a basketball player who hadn't
run up and down a court to practice lay-ups in between games, nor would a hockey player be on the ice, if he
didn't lace up skates to practice slapping a puck around! It wouldn't be acceptable for these sportsment to use
electronics to hone their skills, why is using a simulator acceptable for an F1 driver??

You see, I'm not looking at testing as being "just" about the car...

Thats what the 3 practice sessions are about. To practice at the track in question.

You aren't serious, are you? If you follow other ((non-motor)) sports, that would be like saying that a tennis
player can only practice their swing/return the day of a game, that a swimmer can only get into a pool just
before their meets, or that a soccer player can't kick/head a ball around, except when he's on a game pitch!!

By the way, even I know there are limitations regarding the kind of work that can be done to the car, on race
weekends! That alone negates any positives there may be to driving around the track during practice sessions!

[CookinFlat6]

I thought they had no hope in hell of getting on the podium, that's what you said about Button and McLaren.

What I said was this; Button before the weekend stated that the car was now competitive enough for the podium, it had finally closed up on pace to the others.

However apparently the reason they didnt make q3 is because they didnt do enough running in free practice. As Sergio starts ahead he could make the podium with a bit of luck and assuming the car is close to the pace of the Merc, Lotus and Ferrari

The pace wasnt there today, but it wasnt blamed on the car, it was because of not running in practice. All I was saying was if Button turned round and blamed the car after claiming it was now competitive then this would be the sort of thing that annoys fans

Strange though that whitmarsh said they were praying for rain as it was a chance, shame they made the wrong call on free practice (along with the other teams)

[1Lemon]

I thought they had no hope in hell of getting on the podium, that's what you said about Button and McLaren.

What I said was this; Button before the weekend stated that the car was now competitive enough for the podium, it had finally closed up on pace to the others.

However apparently the reason they didnt make q3 is because they didnt do enough running in free practice. As Sergio starts ahead he could make the podium with a bit of luck and assuming the car is close to the pace of the Merc, Lotus and Ferrari

The pace wasnt there today, but it wasnt blamed on the car, it was because of not running in practice. All I was saying was if Button turned round and blamed the car after claiming it was now competitive then this would be the sort of thing that annoys fans

Strange though that whitmarsh said they were praying for rain as it was a chance, shame they made the wrong call on free practice (along with the other teams)

The actual full quote started with something like "It's a wet brazil, so any thing can happen" then wen't on about how he could get a podium. Then he finished with "It's far fetched but it's got to be the goal." Whilst it is very far fetched it could still happen.

[CookinFlat6]

It's not that I want it "so badly" so much as I recognize that it's essential to success in pretty well any sport!!
You wouldn't have a baseball player go up to bat, without extra batting practice, a basketball player who hadn't
run up and down a court to practice lay-ups in between games, nor would a hockey player be on the ice, if he
didn't lace up skates to practice slapping a puck around! It wouldn't be acceptable for these sportsment to use
electronics to hone their skills, why is using a simulator acceptable for an F1 driver??

You see, I'm not looking at testing as being "just" about the car...

Thats what the 3 practice sessions are about. To practice at the track in question.

You aren't serious, are you? If you follow other ((non-motor)) sports, that would be like saying that a tennis
player can only practice their swing/return the day of a game, that a swimmer can only get into a pool just
before their meets, or that a soccer player can't kick/head a ball around, except when he's on a game pitch!!

By the way, even I know there are limitations regarding the kind of work that can be done to the car, on race
weekends! That alone negates any positives there may be to driving around the track during practice sessions!

The point sagi is that it is the same for each team and each driver. Its not like saying a swimmer can only get in a pool before their meet. Its like saying a swimmer can only get in the olympic sized pool before the event as it costs too much to train in one. So he gets to train in a smaller pool. Remeber drivers are not stopped from driving, or training, or using the sim. So Im afraid that argument is flawed.
There is no restriction on the cars in practice, they can test or practice anything they want

This is the McLaren thread so I will just give you a couple of small analogies on here.
Its like an astronaut doesnt get to train in space before heading off to Mars
Its like 2 countries at war deciding to both limit the amount of actual flight training their pilots do to save money. If they both unilaterally do so it works because they save money and remain competitive. If however 1 country had a lot more money, then that country would prefer not to take the deal because a better trained pilot is a better pilot.

So in conclusion, drivers can drive cars, all cars have a steering wheel and tyres. The F1 cars have lots of stuff that can be tried in simulators, tracks can be learnt in the sim. The drivers dont have to practice driving in current F1 cars. They could keep sharp in rally cars on skidpans.

So its not so strange to see where the testing ban comes in if its applied across the board. Ofcourse like a country with more nukes than the rest, the team able to do the most testing is gonna complain about cuts. Anyway the rich teams like Ferrari still have their media days and clienti corsi events etc etc

but still not enough to beat Lotus convincingly

[CookinFlat6]

The actual full quote started with something like "It's a wet brazil, so any thing can happen" then wen't on about how he could get a podium. Then he finished with "It's far fetched but it's got to be the goal." Whilst it is very far fetched it could still happen.

Shame you hadnt actually read the article or understood my point before piling into a with hunt that resulted in a thread being locked. Anyone can get a podium, but claiming the car is now competitive in its own rights for a podium (14th on grid ) then later claiming the car was actually not good enough when it didnt happen is why I criticise Button.

read the article again and lets try not jump in feet first and get the thread locked

"I don't think we're far off the pace of any car apart from Red Bull, and maybe the Lotus of (Romain) Grosjean is a bit too far ahead.

"But with everyone else, if you have a good weekend then you can challenge, so we'll see.
"If we don't get a podium then it's not going to change the way we go about our car next year, but it would just be a nice way to end the season.
"A good result, with both cars in the points, close to a podium would be good, but we have to aim for a podium."
Button does not mind conceding to being relieved the season is coming to a close, in particular after further issues materialised over the course of the recent United States Grand Prix weekend.
"I'm annoyed because I feel the car performance has been there on Fridays and Saturday mornings (through practice)," added Button.
"I hoped to be fighting it out for fourth or fifth (in qualifying) in Austin and I ended up 13th, so really weird. I've got to work out why that is because it was the same in Abu Dhabi.
"The pace is definitely there, I just can't extract it in qualifying which is strange."

Nowhere does it say 'far fetched' its says the car is good enough, and I pointed out that Lotus, Merc, Ferrari, Torro Rosso also have good enough cars and good enough drivers to make getting a podium (or even Q3) a function of exceptional luck and not Mcalren + Button performance

Im done on this

[1Lemon]

The article is paraphrasing so they can put their spin and get clicks. The full quote is so much less ridiculous. That's the last I'm gonna say on this matter, just that don't believe everything you read, especially when it comes down to quotes.

[sagi58]

The point sagi is that it is the same for each team and each driver. Its not like saying a swimmer can only get in a pool before their meet. Its like saying a swimmer can only get in the olympic sized pool before the event as it costs too much to train in one. So he gets to train in a smaller pool. Remeber drivers are not stopped from driving, or training, or using the sim. So Im afraid that argument is flawed.
There is no restriction on the cars in practice, they can test or practice anything they want

This is the McLaren thread so I will just give you a couple of small analogies on here.
Its like an astronaut doesnt get to train in space before heading off to Mars
Its like 2 countries at war deciding to both limit the amount of actual flight training their pilots do to save money. If they both unilaterally do so it works because they save money and remain competitive. If however 1 country had a lot more money, then that country would prefer not to take the deal because a better trained pilot is a better pilot.

So in conclusion, drivers can drive cars, all cars have a steering wheel and tyres. The F1 cars have lots of stuff that can be tried in simulators, tracks can be learnt in the sim. The drivers dont have to practice driving in current F1 cars. They could keep sharp in rally cars on skidpans.

So its not so strange to see where the testing ban comes in if its applied across the board. Ofcourse like a country with more nukes than the rest, the team able to do the most testing is gonna complain about cuts. Anyway the rich teams like Ferrari still have their media days and clienti corsi events etc etc

but still not enough to beat Lotus convincingly

But, it's NOT like a swimmer training in a smaller pool because of the cost, it's like the swimming only being allowed to lift weights, run on the tread mill or use a video game (SIM) to perfect various strokes!!
((I guess you could even liken it to "p.o.r.n."!! ))

Your analogy about the warring countries is a little better, in that there is no way to ensure that any two countries (teams) stay within a "unilateral" agreement, nor does it preclude either from finding a way around said "unilateral" agreement and justifying being able to do so, when questioned about it. Don't forget, even with a "unilateral" agreement in place, if one of the countries/teams chooses to, they can ask for an amendment to any changes implemented (i.e., Pirelli tire change)!

You seem to believe the world is only about what can and can't be done on a computer. BUT, the various technological "toys" available to us (including the F1 drivers, in this case) do NOT effectively duplicate REAL emotions/sensations! Sure, they can come close; but, being in a car to feel the REAL bumps, REAL curves, REAL dips, REAL angles at REAL speeds can NOT be duplicated because the drivers KNOW they are in a machine, they KNOW nothing bad will happen to them in that machine, they KNOW their mistakes won't be problematic in that machine, other than to slow them down.

Let me ask you something:
do you tell your significant other that you'll make dinner virtually, and then expect it to be a hit when there's nothing on the table?
would you buy a home, based on the virtual walk-through a virtual real estate agent takes you on and expect the home to be everything you ever wanted?

Granted, it's the same for everyone; but, is that fair? NOT everyone is comfortable with living in a virtual world! I know I'm not! NOT everyone learns by sitting behind a computer screen! I know I don't! NOT everyone is able to make the leap from the screen to the real world! I know I am not! So, how is equality "fair" in this instance?

p.s. since it is the McLaren thread, I will effectively NOT respond your gratuitous comments about Ferrari and Lotus!!