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[racechick]

The problem is that there is not a sim in existence that has enough data points to replicate the real world. And with 60% wind tunnels and no track testing, anyone can get a sim to feel 'good'

Its the feedback out on track that matters. Someone like Lewis giving feedback means the sim and live feedback can be useful because he can drive round the real life quirks and realities the sim doesnt model. Whereas Button needs an already perfect car to be able to drive well enough to provide the feedback that pushes the car to the edge of its performance envelope

Just as we found at in 2013, his feedback on the sim in the winter was that it was the best car ever, but when it came to the track there was a big gap between the sim and reality. And Button was unable to help close that gap, because in catch 22 style, he was unable to drive it at its (crap) limit

Its the feedback on the track that counts more than ever and with a narrow comfort zone coupled with limited testing every weekend is gonna be a 'I dunno, its strange, something is not right but I dont know what and i have no suggestions, I cant drive it fast enough to help the engineers, I cannot set it up as i dont have a clue'

What happened in the middle of 2012, and that happened all year 2013, is going to happen on an industrial scale in 2014.

'I just dont have any useful feedback because too many variables have changed all at once, and I have a very narrow band of operation'

edit: And just incase anyone is thinking that I am just doing some wishful thinking or that its not possible to know how 2014 will go with Button at the helm, then I would respectfully refer them to everything a few of us Mclaren observers have been saying for a few years and the outcome so far

Regarding your edit cookie, I'm speaking for myself here, others may disagree, but that hits the nail on the head as to why I am harsh (perhaps overly) on button and Whitmarsh. For me the writing was on the wall years ago. Whitmarsh was spending an unprecedented amount of time sorting out and making comfortable Button, at the expense of Lewis and possible championships( 2012 immediately comes to mind). It was clear as day to me that something was not right, but I and others were called conspirators, or deluded, or fanboys. Meanwhile button was getting hailed as Lewis' equal. He clearly isn't however much of a fan girl I am. All that still rankles with me. Now Lewis is gone, so I'm less bothered what button and Whitmarsh get up to, I scrutinise it less; but lo and behold it continues, this time the hapless victim is Perez. But this time it is so blatantly obvious that others are seeing it.
Anyway, I've rambled enough, but that's why I'm harsh on Whitmarsh and button.

[sagi58]

The problem is that there is not a sim in existence that has enough data points to replicate the real world. And with 60% wind tunnels and no track testing, anyone can get a sim to feel 'good'...

At the end of the day, the simulators are little more than a video game, so why are we not seeing more on-track testing?
And, I have to say, I'm not buying the "saving money" argument, when you have drivers/teams having issues!!

[CookinFlat6]

The problem is that there is not a sim in existence that has enough data points to replicate the real world. And with 60% wind tunnels and no track testing, anyone can get a sim to feel 'good'...

At the end of the day, the simulators are little more than a video game, so why are we not seeing more on-track testing?
And, I have to say, I'm not buying the "saving money" argument, when you have drivers/teams having issues!!

But track testing costs a relative fortune, all the staff and equipment and track hire (unless you have a Fiorano in your back pocket)
Why dont you buy the 'save money' argument? Even if Ferrari offered everyone free use of its track they still gotta fly everyone out there etc

[Roth]

There's always Scalextric.

[Denthúl]

Track testing would cost a lot less if it followed on directly from a race weekend, as is done with the young driver tests. A test at Silverstone straight after the British Grand Prix would probably be the least expensive option and I'm sure there are other opportunities for one- or two-day tests following other races (Catalunya, maybe Monza). It wouldn't be a return to full-blown testing, but it would give some opportunities for on-track car development. What it doesn't do, however, is solve the issue of young/reserve drivers gaining experience, as teams would most likely want to use their race drivers to get the best feedback.

[CookinFlat6]

Looking at a team like Lotus who couldnt pay Kimi, and especially at the back of the grid extra testing days is extra cost full stop. Therefore it makes sense that the more testing there is the more the rift between the top teams and the rest.

Even if carried out after the weekend, its still an extra cost that is removed across the board. Some tracks will be better and closer to home for some teams (cheaper), so that could be unfair. Thats the whole idea. The difference between unlimited testing and 10 or 5 or 2 extra sessions is cost.

The last thing F1 needs now ontop of the new engines is an increase of the running costs for teams that are on the verge of insolvency, with fewer sponsors and less money coming in.

[Jabberwocky]

A team at the back of the grid could get paid to test. I am sure Ferrari would pop Marussia a couple of bucks to put one of the YDP drivers in the car for the day

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[racechick]

I remember reading sometime ago that costs of track testing pale into insignificance when compared to costs of running a wind tunnel. Is that correct?

[Jabberwocky]

I think it is because F1 teams do not like to do things in moderation.

I am sure I read years ago that it costs on average £1000 a lap to drive when you take into account wear, tear and consumables.

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[racechick]

But I thought the electricity for leaving the wind tunnels running for hours cost more.

[Jabberwocky]

If you had 2 cars doing 100 laps a day that is a lot of 50p's for the lecky meter

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[sagi58]

The problem is that there is not a sim in existence that has enough data points to replicate the real world. And with 60% wind tunnels and no track testing, anyone can get a sim to feel 'good'...

At the end of the day, the simulators are little more than a video game, so why are we not seeing more on-track testing?
And, I have to say, I'm not buying the "saving money" argument, when you have drivers/teams having issues!!

But track testing costs a relative fortune, all the staff and equipment and track hire (unless you have a Fiorano in your back pocket)
Why dont you buy the 'save money' argument? Even if Ferrari offered everyone free use of its track they still gotta fly everyone out there etc

It's not that I don't "buy" into that argument, so much as it seems to me that if you can't
ante up, you should walk away from the table!!

Look at it this way, you'd never buy a multi-million dollar mansion on a budget based on
a part-time job that's seasonal, so why get into a business venture you can't afford to run?

And, I truly do understand and realize that many historical teams are having financial issues;
but, that's because of the poor "working conditions" as set out by Mr. Ecclestone! More of the
profits generated by the teams should go back to the teams.

Sure, that may simplistic; but, in the end, it is what it is!

[1Lemon]

The only reason you want that is because Ferrari is the only team that could afford it, or justify to their board that they need all this testing.

[Denthúl]

If all the teams that are struggling financially walked away, the sport would collapse immediately. I don't believe anybody wants to see only three or four teams running around, even if they run three or four cars each.

[sagi58]

Looking at a team like Lotus who couldnt pay Kimi, and especially at the back of the grid extra testing days is extra cost full stop. Therefore it makes sense that the more testing there is the more the rift between the top teams and the rest.

Even if carried out after the weekend, its still an extra cost that is removed across the board. Some tracks will be better and closer to home for some teams (cheaper), so that could be unfair. Thats the whole idea. The difference between unlimited testing and 10 or 5 or 2 extra sessions is cost.

The last thing F1 needs now ontop of the new engines is an increase of the running costs for teams that are on the verge of insolvency, with fewer sponsors and less money coming in.

If you take that same philosophy and apply it to any other profession, what would it look like?

Let's see...

1) You're on the operating table; but, the doctor has never performed an appendectomy independently, so you end up with your gall bladder being removed!

2) You've just called 911, because you're house is on fire; but, it's the operator's first day on the job, so the paramedics come with a fire extinguisher!

3) You're looking to buy a brand new car; but, the salesperson hasn't quite mastered the financial aspect of it and you end up financing your home!

And, the list goes on and on and on...