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[What's Burning?]

The Red Bull PR machine keeps on cranking trying to shore up the perception of many fans and trying to figure inexplicably, why it's not being swallowed as packaged.

To even compare today's drivers to the greats of the past is a laughable exercise. The comparisons need to be made to their contemporaries. Every fan has an opinion on Vettel and he's a four time champion, yet the Red Bull juggernaut sure is pushing hard to change hearts.

[Big Azza]

I think that article raises some good points. However, it also incorrectly states that Vettel won on debut with Red Bull - and he didn't; it wasn't until the third race in China.

The Jim Clark comparison is one that has been ringing in my head for a while - but the reason why he's different is because he's British (Or English, or United Kingdom-ish - whatever is the politically correct one). British dominated sport - means he's viewed in a different light among the media and vast fanbase from Britain/England/U.K.

Sebastian Vettel won't be esteemed in greatness until Generation X go senile - then it will probably be the statistics that count.

Fact is, Sebastian has also achieved what he has with the most World Champions on the grid - something which will definitely shine favourably on him the decades to come....

Again - I'm not going to comment any further on this, because any argument to support Vettel's greatness is quickly refuted. Lets just see where everyone is next year when Hamilton smashes everyone in the world championship - will it be a feat attributed to Hamilton, or the designer?

Team and Driver monopolization is part of the history of Formula One. I've already mentioned the names in the past, Clark is definitely one who did it. But yet we remember him as a great driver (but probably him dying early has something to do with it as well).

However, it is incorrect of me to brand people who dismiss Vettel's greatness as being nationalistic. Many have listed their reasons for dismissing Vettel's greatness, but I still think they are not good enough reasons because most champions in the past won with a superior car.

Did people really suggest that Webber has actually joined Red Bull on a PR campaign to praise Vettel? Webber - who refuses to be in team photos with the guy? Webber would know best of all as his team mate, but still it gets dismissed.

No point continuing this conversation until Vettel retires from the sport....

[1Lemon]

The first para, he has a point.

Not really, Ascari only raced 30 odd GP, Clark raced parallel series to great success, as did Stewart. Prost was sacked twice for political reasons, not driving. Fangio is the original benchmark for greatness, which will never go uncriticised.

The whole thing idly glosses over reality. Some of it's not even factually correct.

Fangio used to get his teammates car mid race if his broke down.
But being the greatest means it's okay.

Yeah but we all know the reason Vettel doesn't get Webber's car mid race...

The Jim Clark comparison is one that has been ringing in my head for a while - but the reason why he's different is because he's British (Or English, or United Kingdom-ish - whatever is the politically correct one). British dominated sport - means he's viewed in a different light among the media and vast fanbase from Britain/England/U.K.

I disagree, I don't think that's the reason at all, many brits call Schui a great, hell if brits are willing to call Prost (FRENCH!) and Fangio (ARGIE!) greats then we have no problem with Vettel being ze German. A lot of people take what brits take seriously, when 80% of the time we are joking, but the sarcasm is occasionally hard to pick up; especially digitally.

[Jabberwocky]

Lets not forget that dodgy Brazilian fella they make movies about.

Maybe you need to win a championship for 2 different teams to be classed as a true great

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[Hammer278]

Lets not forget that dodgy Brazilian fella they make movies about.

Maybe you need to win a championship for 2 different teams to be classed as a true great

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk

Who's got that in the current field? Nobody!

Though we might have a decent chance of having 1 around by end of next season.

[CookinFlat6]

It's very simple really, if Seb can win things in a new era where things are more equal at least to start or in a different team then his 4 WDCs will count towards his greatness. If not he will be a one trick pony who happened to have 4 years at the best team with a lackey teammate

Also if another team and driver dominate for the next 4 years then that will discount his achievement even more especy if like MS that driver has won with another team

Whatever the RBR pr machine do, the jury is out on Sebs greatness until he has shown he can beat his peers even without a 2 sec car or that he can beat a WDC quality teammate. The public are not gonna change their minds when he hasn't even matched MS

[1Lemon]

It's very simple really, if Seb can win things in a new era where things are more equal at least to start or in a different team then his 4 WDCs will count towards his greatness. If not he will be a one trick pony who happened to have 4 years at the best team with a lackey teammate

A 4 trick pony.

You don't win 4 WDCs on the trot by just having the best car.

[CookinFlat6]

Button won 6 races in a row by having a 2 sec car, if he had this car for 4 years, he could have 4wdcs. He is not a great
Guys capable of consistent driving within a cars means win in cars with a big advantage, Heidfeld and Chiltern would win 4 WDCs in a car 2 secs faster than the rest and with a nobbled teammate

Others can shine in the cars not clearly superior and create exciting races and performances from anywhere on the grid. This gets them the respect , when they get the best cars they become true legends without question or doubts or booing

Just saying .......

[1Lemon]

Others can shine in the cars not clearly superior and create exciting races and performances from anywhere on the grid. This gets them the respect , when they get the best cars they become true legends without question or doubts or booing

Like Vettel did in Abu Dabai or Brazil last year?

[CookinFlat6]

If your car is 2 seconds faster than the rest it's not too hard to start at the back and make the podium. After all we saw Webber do this a few times and we know that he is not a great and that his car doesn't have the same traction as Sebs

[What's Burning?]

Others can shine in the cars not clearly superior and create exciting races and performances from anywhere on the grid. This gets them the respect , when they get the best cars they become true legends without question or doubts or booing

Like Vettel did in Abu Dabai or Brazil last year?

The car he raced with was not the car that was set up for qualifying, it was completely set up to allow him to pass. Brazil last year what I saw was a guy that was extremely fortunate not to have lost a championship, because that was LUCK not skill that won him his third. But he's got four championship and can thumb his nose at the other single or two time champions on the grid, if not be being a better driver at least for having the good fortune of being in the right place at the right time and being better than his team mate.

I would have loved seeing Kimi in a Red Bull for 2014, that would have at least shut up his detractors if he would have beaten Kimi as handily as he does Webber, but something tells me that Red Bull wanted something else.

[racechick]

Others can shine in the cars not clearly superior and create exciting races and performances from anywhere on the grid. This gets them the respect , when they get the best cars they become true legends without question or doubts or booing

Like Vettel did in Abu Dabai or Brazil last year?

The car he raced with was not the car that was set up for qualifying, it was completely set up to allow him to pass. Brazil last year what I saw was a guy that was extremely fortunate not to have lost a championship, because that was LUCK not skill that won him his third. But he's got four championship and can thumb his nose at the other single or two time champions on the grid, if not be being a better driver at least for having the good fortune of being in the right place at the right time and being better than his team mate.

I would have loved seeing Kimi in a Red Bull for 2014, that would have at least shut up his detractors if he would have beaten Kimi as handily as he does Webber, but something tells me that Red Bull wanted something else.

Yes. An easy ride for him.

[CookinFlat6]

I would have loved seeing Kimi in a Red Bull for 2014, that would have at least shut up his detractors if he would have beaten Kimi as handily as he does Webber, but something tells me that Red Bull wanted something else.

A PR fairytale to be lapped up by the types who drink that Red Bull s***

[Roth]

People just get a hard on for this four WDC thing - if Abu Dhabi '10 had been a little different Alonso would have the same number of crowns, but with two teams. Would we be considering Vettel a great then, or Alonso? I don't think we do consider Alonso a great just the best of his era; the benchmark, like MS was or Senna and Prost or numerous ones before. We weren't considering Vettel a great midway through the season, but all of a sudden his car is a dream machine, so he gets dream results and now he's one of the all time greats? Jeeze.

What happens is a statement is made about his talent and then all remarks and comments have to try and prove it, like that silly article above. Lets see how his career pans out, then it has perspective, then we can try and fit him in a little gold box with a big star on.

[bud]

You can't play the what if game, for example what if Glock stayed ahead of Lewis in Brazil 08? Lewis would be 0 from 2.

End of the day f1 is a sport where car has always been the key, just ask Schumacher and Ferrari. Vettel and Redbull like Ferrari before them have achieved what every team and driver sets out to achieve. To say they are unworthy is just sour grapes,bad sportsmanship, jealousy what ever reasons are behind the comments.