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[Jabberwocky]

Was Fangio a great? how do we know? we have not really seen him drive, we only really have the stats to go on.

[NHcheese]

This has got from a who WONT to a who WILL

[CookinFlat6]

But the thing with stats is they are written into history. If Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel all finished racing at the end of this season. In 20 years time when asked who is the greatest driver of the 2010's the 4 time world champion will be talked about.

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Not necessarily true. Let's say in the next 20 years, 3 drivers win 5 WDCs each because they had a Newey car (or Merc, or whatever dominant package), let's say they win 5 in a row each and it's obviously about the car

Then looking back, posterity will discount high numbers of WDCs won in a row in a dominant package, and the WDCs won in different cars when there was real competition will become a golden age. Put it this way Sebs 4 in a row devalues MS' 5 in a row, and if another 5 in a row comes along no one in future is gonna look at the stats and rank number of WDCs as high as WDCs in different cars. Or WDCs won by a point against top quality teammates

Stats are just a memory aid for subjective appraisal. Why is Jim Clarke or Gille V even today revered despite record stats? Why is Senna still ranked higher than MS? Because of legendary feats, because of impressive races,never because of stats, only half wits place complete credence on stats because greatness and legends are never ever about the result only the way the results are achieved, which is why sports affords for debate, discussion and lasting curiosity

Lewis will be remembered for beating the 2x reigning WDC in his rookie year, for being the first black champ, for his wet Silverstone race etc no matter what happens from now.

It's like Mike Tyson, Marciano, Joe Louis, Ali, who remembers the stats and who remembers the boxers?

[operaman]

Statistics do not define greatness, they only indicate success. Greatness is determined by the observer, each of us with our own criteria. If numbers alone were the determinant of greatness, not only would Seb Vettel be universally declared to be one of "the greats", but so would Justin Beiber.

[1Lemon]

You have to look at it in terms of music, some people will classify Mettalica as greats, and Queen as an alright band. Where as I classify Mettalica as meh, but Queen as glorious overlords of all thing ever.

Statistics don't make a great driver, your memory does.

[What's Burning?]

Which brings us to why we come to a forum in the first place. Since we've established that what we think is the only thing that matters, we must therefore be here seeking validation of what we think.

[CookinFlat6]

True, no one here probably saw Fangio or Clark or Joe Louis or Ali but we have heard enough stories and legends from various sources to create an impression of greatness. That's how we work( most of us) and is why sports is a great leveller and discussion, because we all form subjective opinions on greatness and then come here to confirm not to find out stats

I remember Tyson as a boxer in his prime, but I have no idea if his stats were better or worse than Lennox Lewis, I already know who I reckon was greater

[Hammer278]

All we need now is for Lewis to bite off Vettel's ear in parc ferme and he'll be instant LEGEND status for all non-Vettel worshippers.

[What's Burning?]

Stats; 1 ear chewed off*

[operaman]

You have to look at it in terms of music, some people will classify Mettalica as greats, and Queen as an alright band. Where as I classify Mettalica as meh, but Queen as glorious overlords of all thing ever.

Statistics don't make a great driver, your memory does.

Interesting, but more like comparing an F1 driver to one from WRC. That's exactly what I meant by each of us having our own criteria though.

[1Lemon]

You have to look at it in terms of music, some people will classify Mettalica as greats, and Queen as an alright band. Where as I classify Mettalica as meh, but Queen as glorious overlords of all thing ever.

Statistics don't make a great driver, your memory does.

Interesting, but more like comparing an F1 driver to one from WRC. That's exactly what I meant by each of us having our own criteria though.

Saying comparing a WRC driver with an F1 driver just reminds me of Colin McRae; he once did a few laps around Silverstone in a Jordan I think in the late 90s, apparently he posted competitive lap times and an Bundle saying who said "If he wanted to drive in F1, he could be champion easily."

Don't quote me on that though, I can'r fully remember.

[NHcheese]

Stats do tell as story, but not the full story.

[CookinFlat6]

Stats do tell as story, but not the full story.

Stats tell the results, the story is the context of the results and the manner and style and incidents leading to the result

thats the difference between humans and monkeys who can count - the story part, like culture, story telling is not a science

[youtube]VM5QS_adrIQ[/youtube]

[NHcheese]

I saw the thumbnail and recognised it, then I went "no, not this again"

[CookinFlat6]

Ill bet that same monkey could tell us who the greatest driver is if you put the stats in front

At least it wouldnt turn around and tell us we are immoral for not agreeing