FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[LiamCatterson]

So...What was that smell that Vettel sensed REALLY about

[racechick]

I think he shat himself

[LiamCatterson]

I think he shat himself

Maybe the team told Vettel that Webber was going to win the race this weekend and Vettel would have to let Webber past

[NHcheese]

Mark takes win from Vettel. Waving middle fingeres as he passes mockingly.

[Jabberwocky]

Did he beat. Vettel as well?

Yeah, I put him up with the greats of Senna and Fangio too.

Didn't Senna get beaten by Martin Brundle in lower formulas

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk

Not sure about that. IIRC the true greats never got beaten by teammates over a full year except odd isolated years, and then only by teammates who had or went on to win WDCs

Thinking of Lewis, Alonso, Lauda, Senna, Prost. (MS got beaten by Irvine one year so I cant put him in)

I checked up. Brundle was winning the championship for most of the year then Senna snatched the championship in the last few laps of the last race.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk

[Denthúl]

Did he beat. Vettel as well?

Yeah, I put him up with the greats of Senna and Fangio too.

Didn't Senna get beaten by Martin Brundle in lower formulas

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk

Not sure about that. IIRC the true greats never got beaten by teammates over a full year except odd isolated years, and then only by teammates who had or went on to win WDCs

Thinking of Lewis, Alonso, Lauda, Senna, Prost. (MS got beaten by Irvine one year so I cant put him in)

Wait, what? You except odd isolated years, but can't include 1999 which was, uh...an odd isolated year?

Obviously, you could add in his second career, but come on. We all know he was past it.

[CookinFlat6]

Erm, that's not included because Irvine never won a WDC, so MS was beaten by a non WDC teammate unlike Lewis, Senna, Prost

[Denthúl]

There are two problems with your argument.

1) Counting 1999 against Schumacher is ridiculous considering he missed over a third of the season due to injury.
2) Prost was beaten by Watson.

[zurich_allan]

There are two problems with your argument.

1) Counting 1999 against Schumacher is ridiculous considering he missed over a third of the season due to injury.
2) Prost was beaten by Watson.

There's a problem with your argument though.

1) The season Watson Beat Prost, he beat him by one point, and Prost missed one race. So who knows if Prost had driven in that one other race...
2) This really shows the difference that old Vs new points systems make: Prost was much more consistent than Watson in spite of scoring one less point (with one less race). Under the points system of the time, It was Watson - 6 points, Prost - 5 points, with Watson only scoring in 2 races and Prost scoring in 4 races however if the same results were in 2013 it would actually have finished Prost - 44 points, Watson - 34 points....

So when you look beyond the surface at these things, they're not as straight forward as they might first appear...

[CookinFlat6]

There are two problems with your argument.

1) Counting 1999 against Schumacher is ridiculous considering he missed over a third of the season due to injury.
2) Prost was beaten by Watson.

Point one = stats are stats, Lewis had emotional issues the one year he was beaten by a WDC teammate, and dnf'ed by being Massared, Webbered and Maldonadoed. So MS broke a leg, physical/pscyhological issues yet was beat by a non WDC teammate. He was also ofcourse beaten by one Nico Rosberg

Point two = Prost wasnt beaten over a whole season by a non WDC driver

However I am willing to accept that Irvine didnt beat Shu over a whole season and therefore maybe we should twist the FACTS by ignoring his trashing by Rosberg. Ok so lets include MS as a great who was never ever beaten by a non WDC teammate over a full season

MS, Prost Senna Lewis Alonso

and getting back on topic, Seb has been beaten by Di Resta, and by Webber bar team intervention, he has never beaten a WDC teammate, has never beaten an unhandicapped teammate

I think my argument

[Denthúl]

There are two problems with your argument.

1) Counting 1999 against Schumacher is ridiculous considering he missed over a third of the season due to injury.
2) Prost was beaten by Watson.

There's a problem with your argument though.

1) The season Watson Beat Prost, he beat him by one point, and Prost missed one race. So who knows if Prost had driven in that one other race...
2) This really shows the difference that old Vs new points systems make: Prost was much more consistent than Watson in spite of scoring one less point (with one less race). Under the points system of the time, It was Watson - 6 points, Prost - 5 points, with Watson only scoring in 2 races and Prost scoring in 4 races however if the same results were in 2013 it would actually have finished Prost - 44 points, Watson - 34 points....

So when you look beyond the surface at these things, they're not as straight forward as they might first appear...

I'm quite aware there's a problem with my argument, it's why I made the second point.

Point one = stats are stats, Lewis had emotional issues the one year he was beaten by a WDC teammate, and dnf'ed by being Massared, Webbered and Maldonadoed. So MS broke a leg, physical/pscyhological issues yet was beat by a non WDC teammate. He was also ofcourse beaten by one Nico Rosberg

Of course, but stats don't tell the whole story. You can't really beat someone who is absent, though, and leading up to his accident Michael had a six point advantage over Eddie. You're absolutely right about Rosberg, though. He more or less had the best of Schumacher during their Mercedes years.

Point two = Prost wasnt beaten over a whole season by a non WDC driver

However I am willing to accept that Irvine didnt beat Shu over a whole season and therefore maybe we should twist the FACTS by ignoring his trashing by Rosberg. Ok so lets include MS as a great who was never ever beaten by a non WDC teammate over a full season

MS, Prost Senna Lewis Alonso

Of course, but my point wasn't about whether or not Prost had been beaten, but that I could say that just as easily as you could say Irvine beat Schumacher and it would not tell what actually happened.

and getting back on topic, Seb has been beaten by Di Resta, and by Webber bar team intervention, he has never beaten a WDC teammate, has never beaten an unhandicapped teammate

I think my argument

I'm not sure you can use di Resta as part of your argument here; there have been many occasions where performances in lower formulae don't correlate with those in F1. But yes, he's never been up against a WDC team-mate, you're quite correct. And that's why, for the moment at least, we don't really know how good (or bad) he is compared to those. It would be interesting to see him up against Lewis or Fernando, but I won't deny that he has worked for his success.

[CookinFlat6]

Just saying the real greats beat teammates in all series an all cars, WDC teammate or not

bar exceptional years and only then by WDCs or those who become WDCs

Di Resta doesnt look like WDC material, he could be but the stats tell us that Senna and Lewis beat all their teammates in every single series bar stand out years, and only then by WDCs

Its hard to argue that a guy is a true great when he has been beaten in identical cars

i mean how many true greats can there be at any one time.

'Oh I am a true great but I got beaten by on merit and matched by average drivers and only became unbeatable when I had a certain car'

Its like a boxer with 44 wins and 1 defeat to a champion on a night he screwed up, compare that to a boxer who has lost fights to guys who were average along the way

Wouldnt call the second guy a great, because real greats are rare

[darwin dali]

The international press is running out of superlatives to describe Sebastian Vettel's meteoric rise to F1 greatness. With memories of podium booing still fresh, the jury had been out on the 26-year-old's recent successes in Adrian Newey-inked Red Bulls.

But his dominance in the second half of 2013, culminating in his near-unprecedented seventh win on the trot in Abu Dhabi last Sunday, has finally won German Vettel an undoubted wave of respect. "Like Schumacher, Vettel is insatiable," said the respected Italian daily La Gazzetta dello Sport. "Perfect, unassailable, invincible. It's as though he's in another category."

Another major sports daily, Corriere dello Sport, agreed: "Although he has conquered his fourth title, Vettel shows no signs of fatigue or a lack of motivation." Italy's biggest daily La Repubblica added: "For Vettel, the track seems shorter, the corners smoother -- he drives like a prima ballerina dances, with elegance and strength."

Corriere della Sera continued: "Vettel is a voracious master, using a racetrack created just for him, with an enemy badly under pressure from such a phenomenon." Red Bull team owner Dietrich Mateschitz said this week: "Sebastian is a talent of the century. But the extreme cohesion and outstanding performance of the whole team was also exceptional," he told Austrian television Servus TV.

[What's Burning?]

And yet the poor guy is getting booed.

[darwin dali]

And yet the poor guy is getting booed.

Not recently though.