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[Jabberwocky]

Lol

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk

[mnmracer]

But it's all just speculation

A fact which is waaaay too easily let slipped these days.

[CookinFlat6]

[CookinFlat6]

That's almost a conspiracy theory! But a plausible one, especially when you consider how he manages to open up the gap immediately at the beginning of races. But it's all just speculation at this point, would the other teams be so blind and so passive if they suspected something like this? I find it hard to believe.

What could the other teams do?
Constantly report RBR to the stewards, like with flapping wings - check
Listen to the sound of the car at a certain corner and make their suspicions public - check
Get the stewards to look for handles to adjust height - check
Complain about RBR getting assistance from the FIA since 2009 - check
Notice that RBR killed FOTA any any chance of RRA self enforcement - check
Complain so much that engine maps are fixed and aggressive changes not allowed - check
Complain so much that a ban on exhaust blowing is rushed through - check
Maybe decide to wait for 2014 and a new chance to have a fair competition - check

[mnmracer]

Listen to the sound of the car at a certain corner and make their suspicions public - check

For the quality of this discussion, I would like to kindly point out to you that this fact is wrong.
The fact upon which a quality discussion can be based, is that only one single former team member has done such a thing.
The fact upon which a quality discussion can be based, is that none of the current team members, or any one not 12 years out of the sport, has taken this up.

Complain about RBR getting assistance from the FIA since 2009 - check

For the quality of this discussion, I would like to kindly point out to you that you have provided no evidence for this 'fact' and it would be wrong to present mere speculation as such.

Notice that RBR killed FOTA any any chance of RRA self enforcement - check

For the quality of this discussion, I would like to kindly point out to you that implying it was solely RBR is a misrepresentation of facts.

Complain so much that engine maps are fixed and aggressive changes not allowed - check
Complain so much that a ban on exhaust blowing is rushed through - check

For the quality of this discussion, I would like to kindly point out to you that you have provided no evidence for this coming from any of the team and it would be wrong to present mere speculation as a fact.

[What's Burning?]

Between Minardi and you mnm, I would think he's got a bit more inside knowledge of the sport, wouldn't you agree? Because he's saying something you don't like doesn't mean that it's not true.

So when Murray walker says something grand about Vettel we need to take it as gospel, but when another F1 old timer says something about Red Bull's engine sound reminding him of the way traction control was being implemented years ago, and having a visual comparison and performance results to base his hypotheses on, well that's downright blasphemous.

Which way do you want it, do we listen to old coots or do we not listen to them?

[CookinFlat6]

Listen to the sound of the car at a certain corner and make their suspicions public - check

For the quality of this discussion, I would like to kindly point out to you that this fact is wrong.
The fact upon which a quality discussion can be based, is that only one single former team member has done such a thing.
The fact upon which a quality discussion can be based, is that none of the current team members, or any one not 12 years out of the sport, has taken this up.

Complain about RBR getting assistance from the FIA since 2009 - check

For the quality of this discussion, I would like to kindly point out to you that you have provided no evidence for this 'fact' and it would be wrong to present mere speculation as such.

Notice that RBR killed FOTA any any chance of RRA self enforcement - check

For the quality of this discussion, I would like to kindly point out to you that implying it was solely RBR is a misrepresentation of facts.

Complain so much that engine maps are fixed and aggressive changes not allowed - check
Complain so much that a ban on exhaust blowing is rushed through - check

For the quality of this discussion, I would like to kindly point out to you that you have provided no evidence for this coming from any of the team and it would be wrong to present mere speculation as a fact.

I was asked a question 'what could the teams do IF the THEORY was correct' and supplied possible answers

A hypothetical q&a session, speculating about what the teams could do if the scenarios were actually true

I did not once claim that they did as I suggested, I merely suggested, sounds you saying Red Bull have been guilty of those misdemeanours?

A barrister would cases by being too hasty

[mnmracer]

Between Minardi and you mnm, I would think he's got a bit more inside knowledge of the sport, wouldn't you agree? Because he's saying something you don't like doesn't mean that it's not true.

I am not arguing between Minardi and me. I am arguing between Minardi and the vast majority of the paddock.
In one case, we have an old insider who is the only one to make a statement.
In the other case, we have an old insider who makes a statement which in general terms is echoed across the paddock. Not everyone says he's a great yet, but few if any echo the 'not one of the top drivers/any driver can do it/Webber would be as fast if only...' sentiment that goes around here.

[What's Burning?]

The vast majority of the paddock... that's a substantiated claim? When the wings were flapping, were there claims by other teams that Red Bull were cheating or was it just external observations? I don't recall a single team making public statements. Sure enough after a while everyone's wings were flapping but the FiA eventually took note and put a stop to it.

I think when any loophole is found in F1 the immediate reaction by other teams is NOT how can we stop them from doing it but how can we implement the same loophole into our car. Only when the answer is we can't, do complaints and challenges arise. The trick is to find the loophole first so you can exploit it the longest.

I asked you to address the sound the Red Bull car was making and your only response is to say well McLaren's car sounded like that last year. Really? Well sure, everyone's car sounded like that last year, and the EBD and the overruns and everything else that was going on... but we're not talking about last year are we? Is that a valid response? Are you serious giving people grief about the validity of their arguments and that's the best you can come up with when challenged? Is there one set of rules under which you function and another set of rules under which you feel the world should function? I ask because the further you stray from your purely statistical analysis posts, the more your fanatical irrationality surfaces.

In Singapore, RBR cheated and got away with it, more power to them, Vettel likely screwed the pooch by flying too close to the sun and making it so obvious, therefore the trick lasted for but one race. No one is denouncing that, it's part of the sport, but for you to not even acknowledge the possibility of it when all circumstantial evidence leads to the conclusion is a bit delusional and dysfunctional.

[mnmracer]

The vast majority of the paddock... that's a substantiated claim?

Who in the paddock has recently slammed Vettel as is done on forums?
Even Hamilton and Alonso are acknowledging he's doing great and 'the car doesn't drive itself'.
If you believe it to be untrue, please provide those who echo 'your' sentiments. Shouldn't take long

[CookinFlat6]

Lewis suggested the car sounded like it did in 2007 with TC
Toto said RBR Renault were up to something with engine maps
Scarbs, well lets not go there

Traction control has been banned in Formula One since 2009, but some people in the sport claim championship leader Sebastian Vettel's Red Bull car has some form of traction-control system after he was lapping the Singapore Grand Prix circuit more than two seconds per lap faster than his nearest competitor, USA Today and the BBC report.

Ever since the Montreal Grand Prix in June, rumors began to circulate that the Red Bull team was using some form of traction control. The system allows drivers to get off the line quicker and get on the power earlier out of corners as the computer optimizes the engine’s output based on the amount of grip at the tires. But traction control has been banned in F1 since 2008, and every race car uses the same engine control unit (ECU), all of which are inspected by F1 management at every race.

The leading speculation, posited by Racecar Engineering, is that Red Bull has managed to link the suspension in Vettel’s RB9 to the hybrid Kinetic Energy Recovery System (KERS) onboard. KERS has been around for a few years and gives drivers a power boost in short bursts, and because it’s an electric motor, the torque output can be tweaked on-the-fly — just like a traditional traction control system.

As speculation swirls around the extent of Sebastian Vettel’s dominance in the past few races, the consensus emerging is that his Red Bull RB9 is making clever use of a ‘post-exhaust blowing’ solution.

Its not a stretch of the imagination to accept there are political reasons to keep silent, or like WB said, try exploit it themselves, or like Alonso change his tune about Seb maybe because he wants to replace him at RBR, or Lewis changing his tune about about Seb maybe because he expects a similar advantage next year

The point is that opinions are just that and can be based on any or all of the facts available. And frankly its getting tiring for everyone on Autosport, PF1 and this forum to put up with your outbursts and farcical and fascistic attempts to get everyone to have the same interpretation of the facts about your pinup boy.

The bottom line is that Webber matches him everytime he has a fair shot and Webber aint a great

[Big Azza]

I think EVERYBODY needs a hug.

[Ichabod]

I think EVERYBODY needs a hug.

By a Grizzly Bear

[CookinFlat6]

Everyone just needs to obey the forum rules, specifically;

No insults or abuse of other members even if they have a different opinion from yours
Opinions and criticisms of drivers are allowed

simples

[mnmracer]

Lewis suggested the car sounded like it did in 2007 with TC
Toto said RBR Renault were up to something with engine maps

Putting aside the fact that Lewis' car sounded the same in Korea last year, how is two people equal to the vast majority?

Scarbs, well lets not go there

You mean Scarbs, when asked "is this TC-thingie story about RBR worth checking by you", who answered "Nope"?

The bottom line is that Webber matches him everytime he has a fair shot and Webber aint a great

For the quality of this discussion, I would like to kindly point out to you that you have provided no factual evidence for this, the fact the opposite is repeated over and over again by those in the know, and it would be wrong to present mere speculation as a fact.