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[LewEngBridewell]

Surely if people are questioning his greatness he is not a great. Has anyone ever questioned the greatness of Fangio, Senna, Prost, Schumacher?

For sure, back in the day. Time lapse does strange things to people's mind-sets. Rose-tinted specs begin to form. People will view Vettel in a better light a few decades down the line.

That way, they can do what many folk do now... chat bullsh!t about times they have either forgotten, or know too little about.

[Roth]

Who is Vettel on a par with then, from the past?

Piquet? Lauda? Boutsen?

He's no Nigel Mansell, that's for sure.

[bud]

Put Hamilton in the RedBull these past 4 years and those saying Vettels achievements are all car I wonder if they will say the same about Hamilton?

I think it's ludicrous to discredit Sebastian in the sport of F1 where the car has always been the key to success. It wreaks of jealousy to me.

[What's Burning?]

Put Hamilton in the RedBull these past 4 years and those saying Vettels achievements are all car I wonder if they will say the same about Hamilton?

I think it's ludicrous to discredit Sebastian in the sport of F1 where the car has always been the key to success. It wreaks of jealousy to me.

Why Hamilton?

[Roth]

Put Hamilton in the RedBull these past 4 years and those saying Vettels achievements are all car I wonder if they will say the same about Hamilton?

I think it's ludicrous to discredit Sebastian in the sport of F1 where the car has always been the key to success. It wreaks of jealousy to me.

Vettel lacks humility; he has stopped remembering it's mainly about the car. I imagine anyone else would be vaguely embarrased to be in his position. When Button had that Brawn for half a season he always seemed slightly bemused how good the car was and what it was letting him do. Vettel has been in car like that for so long the car/driver line has been wiped out in his head.

[bud]

You talk as though he has wrapped up the title each time with 4 races to spare?

[Roth]

Two out of four cakewalks isn't bad.

Or should that be two cakewalks out of four? That sounds better.

[CookinFlat6]

The main thing about the Red Bull situation, unlike the other 2 sec cars like Brawn is the teams treatment of Webber. Seb is claimed great because it appears that Webber cannot match him in any way in the same car thereby making Seb look exceptional

But this is where the distortions start. The cars are not equal, Webber is not treated equally, and when given the chances has matched Seb. And for me everytime Sebs car dos not have exceptional rear downforce and traction, he looks average,, excessive oversteer, poor race craft, mistakes, crashing into others trying to overtake.

Ask yourselves this, if Red Bull had had Webber come a close second in every race Seb has won, like in Japan 2013, or even beat Seb 40% of the time (like in 2012) would Seb look that good?
In 2010 Seb won 5 times and Webber won 4 times, yet Seb won 3-1 in second half of year after the evidence of Seb favoured (wing-gate)
In 2010 Red Bull won 9 times and 4 of those were 1,2s
Contrast that to the stats of say 2013, its not rocket science. Did Webber suddenly get really bad, yet suddenly matches Seb like in 2010 everytime Sebs car has his trick missing

Senna, Fangio, MS were never beaten by team mates like Di Resta, and always looked good no matter the car they were driving

The facts tell us MS won WDCs in different cars, Alonso has proven himself in different cars, Lewis has led a mid grid team to the front.

Seb has had cars built around him by Newey, has been matched by average teammates, and most alarmingly always looks average when the car doesn't have a particular system.

Yes titles are won by drivers in good cars, yet if we look at the years the WDC and WCC were not won by the same team, we see that Lewis has not won in the best car, Alonso has not won in the best car. Seb has always won in the best car (biggest WCC margins) despite the handicapping of his teammate.

Seb is good, but great drivers do not need to stick a finger up to remind the audience that their car is number 1. Does anyone here truthfully believe Nick Heidfeld would not have won the WDC in at least 2011 and 2013 with that car?

[Big Azza]

Put Hamilton in the RedBull these past 4 years and those saying Vettels achievements are all car I wonder if they will say the same about Hamilton?

I think it's ludicrous to discredit Sebastian in the sport of F1 where the car has always been the key to success. It wreaks of jealousy to me.

Vettel lacks humility; he has stopped remembering it's mainly about the car. I imagine anyone else would be vaguely embarrased to be in his position. When Button had that Brawn for half a season he always seemed slightly bemused how good the car was and what it was letting him do. Vettel has been in car like that for so long the car/driver line has been wiped out in his head.

Vettel has NEVER gone on record saying it's all him. In fact, he mostly always says that the team built a fast car. The only time he ever took credit for himself in which some read into as arrogance was Brazil 2011 when had the gearbox failing and finished second, and he said he felt like Senna.

I don't know why people say Vettel is arrogant. Yeah he was naughty in Malaysia, but I think he has always been quite humble, it's just a case of tall poppy syndrome. Because he wins he's perceived as arrogant.

[Hammer278]

Put Hamilton in the RedBull these past 4 years and those saying Vettels achievements are all car I wonder if they will say the same about Hamilton?

I think it's ludicrous to discredit Sebastian in the sport of F1 where the car has always been the key to success. It wreaks of jealousy to me.

Vettel lacks humility; he has stopped remembering it's mainly about the car. I imagine anyone else would be vaguely embarrased to be in his position. When Button had that Brawn for half a season he always seemed slightly bemused how good the car was and what it was letting him do. Vettel has been in car like that for so long the car/driver line has been wiped out in his head.

He's just an excited, talented kid who's enjoying the success though his way of showing it is pretty annoying.

Button should be vaguely embarassed because that Brawn made the season a complete joke. The Redbull has been the quickest car but the only time it mimicked the Brawn was in the past 3-4 races after the summer break. I'd say Vettel has had some pressure to contend with in the previous year from Alonso and his drive on the way to his first WDC in 2010 was what impressed me most, balls out racing from 3rd in the WDC to grab it in the last race, team on his side or not, beating Alonso and Ferrari was never going to be easy and they did it. The sucky part is they sacrificed Webber for it, but that doesn't make it Vettel's fault.

I don't know why I'm sounding so pro-Vettel, really I'm not as I think of him as F1's Bieber, but saying his car has been utterly dominant over the last 3 years is far far from accurate. Quickest by a small margin most of the time, utterly dominant recently, that's it. You can't bring 2009 to compare, that was just a freak season.

[Roth]

What the hell was 2011 then? Or the last third of last season? or the second half of this season? Only 2010 was different, but that was just a neurotic mess by everyone involved.

The 2009 Brawn dropped off that high perch very quickly after the first seven races. RB finished much stronger.

[CookinFlat6]

The Redbull has been the quickest car but the only time it mimicked the Brawn was in the past 3-4 races after the summer break. I'd say Vettel has had some pressure to contend with in the previous year from Alonso and his drive on the way to his first WDC in 2010 was what impressed me most, balls out racing from 3rd in the WDC to grab it in the last race, team on his side or not, beating Alonso and Ferrari was never going to be easy and they did it.

Fair enough opinion. I used to think similarly of Seb

However it is now my firm opinion that Red Bull have been sandbagging like crazy over the last 3 years, except on the occasions when the change in regulations about engine maps and exhaust blowing removed their advantage temporarily.

If that is the case, (and I hope somehow Seb shows a similar level of competence and speed next year if and when the car is clearly not way better than others) If that is the case, that his effortless ability to pull a gap at the start of most races and in q3 is down to an advantage that is used sparingly, well then all his achievements have to be reappraised

We have judged him on his ability from the front mainly and from his apparent superiority over Webber. If his car is found later to have had a '2 sec nitro boost button' then it would tie up with how he has managed to look good even when in the pack and sometimes winning, sometimes crashing and showing poor racecraft

It is a reasonable opinion to hold off elevating him to say Alonso status if Alonso almost beat him twice in an inferior car and despite a 2 sec sandbag advantage

[mnmracer]

[sagi58]

That's one opinion of how people form opinions!!


Personally, I believe

[Hammer278]

*insert stupid meaningless image here*

Dude you must be such a nerd.....

The Redbull has been the quickest car but the only time it mimicked the Brawn was in the past 3-4 races after the summer break. I'd say Vettel has had some pressure to contend with in the previous year from Alonso and his drive on the way to his first WDC in 2010 was what impressed me most, balls out racing from 3rd in the WDC to grab it in the last race, team on his side or not, beating Alonso and Ferrari was never going to be easy and they did it.

Fair enough opinion. I used to think similarly of Seb

However it is now my firm opinion that Red Bull have been sandbagging like crazy over the last 3 years, except on the occasions when the change in regulations about engine maps and exhaust blowing removed their advantage temporarily.

If that is the case, (and I hope somehow Seb shows a similar level of competence and speed next year if and when the car is clearly not way better than others) If that is the case, that his effortless ability to pull a gap at the start of most races and in q3 is down to an advantage that is used sparingly, well then all his achievements have to be reappraised

We have judged him on his ability from the front mainly and from his apparent superiority over Webber. If his car is found later to have had a '2 sec nitro boost button' then it would tie up with how he has managed to look good even when in the pack and sometimes winning, sometimes crashing and showing poor racecraft

It is a reasonable opinion to hold off elevating him to say Alonso status if Alonso almost beat him twice in an inferior car and despite a 2 sec sandbag advantage

That's almost a conspiracy theory! But a plausible one, especially when you consider how he manages to open up the gap immediately at the beginning of races. But it's all just speculation at this point, would the other teams be so blind and so passive if they suspected something like this? I find it hard to believe.