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[darwin dali]

This is really a tough call, since I have reservations about both drivers. It's the only paring I've really no leanings on and would have loved to have seen materialize.

We have to ask why Raikkonen was rejected by Red Bull. I think that would be a supremely interesting management memo to have gotten one's hands on.

Finland is a too small Red Bull market

[What's Burning?]

This is really a tough call, since I have reservations about both drivers. It's the only paring I've really no leanings on and would have loved to have seen materialize.

We have to ask why Raikkonen was rejected by Red Bull. I think that would be a supremely interesting management memo to have gotten one's hands on.

Finland is a too small Red Bull market

Red Bull and Finlandia?

[CookinFlat6]

To be continued

[CookinFlat6]

One would think Kimi was the perfect driver for Red Bull with their media and Pr mandate. Not to mention the instant fan base and 'coolness' he could have brought along to help restore their former fun image

Maybe it's down to salary, next season will reveal a lot as the chances are high that there will be a shake up of the order and drivers able to score highly despite car/engine weakness will earn their wages.

I suspect the Alonsos and Lewis' ability to adapt quickly and maximise a developing cars potential will become evident versus the 1 trick ponies who become average when the car is not perfect for them.

Are either Kimi or Seb with the Alonso and Lewis (great) or with the good, should be revealed in the context of exploding engines and running out of fuel scenarios on their way next year

[mnmracer]

I suspect the Alonsos and Lewis' ability to adapt quickly and maximise a developing cars potential will become evident versus the 1 trick ponies who become average when the car is not perfect for them.

And I suspect you already have your list of excuses ready for if your suspicions fail to come true.
"It proofs nothing that Vettel was voted best driver by the teambosses in 2013. Alonso was voted in 2012, and that counts way more, because 2012 is the one year to judge every driver on."
"The Ferrari may appear faster by only a margin, but that's because Vettel is underperforming, the Red Bull is actually 2 seconds faster still."
"Ricciardo is obviously the better driver and it is only because Red Bull chooses to disadvantage yet another Australian, even though I have no proof of this, that Vettel is soundly beating him.
"See, Vettel is not winning every race now, only as many Alonso was doing these last few years. I told you he can't win without the fastest car."

[CookinFlat6]

Emnm, don't you ever get tired of

We are still waiting for you to debate your previous outbursts;

1. F1 is not a show for the audience
2. Webber did not match Seb in 2010, and the team did not favour Seb

You make assertions and insult and challenge the opinions of others but you fail to debate the facts placed in front of you, withdraw for a while, then return with a new set of insults

Back up your challenges and insults by debating with honour instead of cheap snipe and run tactics instead of continually making an arse of yourself. No new debate till you man up and back your previous hormonal outbursts as listed above

[mnmracer]

1. F1 is not a show for the audience

F1 is a sport.
Sport is competition first, entertainment second, unless otherwise stated.
F1 states to be a sport.

2. Webber did not match Seb in 2010, and the team did not favour Seb

Vettel finished ahead of Webber 12:7, 14:5 when corrected for mechanical issues.'
Vettel qualified ahead of Webber 12:7, 11:8 when corrected for mechanical issues.
Other than front-wing gate, and even that's debatable, there is zero evidence of team favoritism.

[Jabberwocky]

If it is down to a Ferrari v Redbull car design for 2014. It is a tough call.

Ferrari are Ferrari they have a lot of history and are never far from the front.

Red Bull, team like this come and go. Good for a few years then die away. Look at the enstone guys. They win a few championships, the fall back to the mid field, change their name and star driver and then the cycle begins again. think Schumacher, Alonso, Kimi (ok he did not win the championship but he made it shine.) All Red bull has is their ace designer to hopefully get it right next year. Lets face it the MP4-18 was a leap too far.

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[mnmracer]

If it is down to a Ferrari v Redbull car design for 2014. It is a tough call.

Ferrari are Ferrari they have a lot of history and are never far from the front.

Red Bull, team like this come and go. Good for a few years then die away. Look at the enstone guys. They win a few championships, the fall back to the mid field, change their name and star driver and then the cycle begins again. think Schumacher, Alonso, Kimi (ok he did not win the championship but he made it shine.) All Red bull has is their ace designer to hopefully get it right next year. Lets face it the MP4-18 was a leap too far.

are you saying not every Newey car is 2 seconds faster?
blashpemy!
prepare to be pitchforked.

[Jabberwocky]

Health and safety says they have to have corks on the end of them

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[CookinFlat6]

1. F1 is not a show for the audience

F1 is a sport.
Sport is competition first, entertainment second, unless otherwise stated.
F1 states to be a sport.

2. Webber did not match Seb in 2010, and the team did not favour Seb

Vettel finished ahead of Webber 12:7, 14:5 when corrected for mechanical issues.'
Vettel qualified ahead of Webber 12:7, 11:8 when corrected for mechanical issues.
Other than front-wing gate, and even that's debatable, there is zero evidence of team favoritism.

You have not disproved anything, all you have done is offer alternating interpretations of the facts I.e your opinion

12/7 is a match, seb wins but the competitors were closely matched, like a boxing match has one winner but there's a difference between a match and a stink for example a mismatch, a whitewash, a one sided affair which the audience tend to boo

This season it's 14/1 in 2010 it was 12/7 therefore with the evidence that the team has favoured Seb - you say it's debatable,I say it's not, we can conclude that in 2010 Webber was a match for Seb and since then the car has been built around Seb

You that one pal

F1 is a sport, that's irrelevant, what's relevant is that F1 is dependent on audiences, sponsors know this, teams budget for this, the income is dependent on tv sales and trackside advertising. a real sport like you are talking about would be by definition an amateur sport, like the olympics, and even that flirts with commercialism in the form of athlete sponsorship

F1 is a show for audiences, it is not an amateur sporting contest

So you again

Good try though, I look forward to roughing you up some more in future debate

[Roth]

It's ridiculous to say Red Bull don't favour Vettel. They'd be idiotic not to. Even from a simple business POV he has so much more to offer. Teams always have a favourite even if, like parents, they don't admit it; but their actions always betray them.

Sort of a non-issue for me, and a completely separate debate as to his worth as a driver rather than a company man. The only way they cross is in the many small increments that make up Vettlel's advantage, increments that come from him being the top driver in the team. I can't really think of a team with sustained success that hasn't approached racing this way. McLaren try but always implode. The only thing that's different now from say, 20 yrs ago and longer, is I think teams have more power over favouritism because drivers have less say in the outcome.

[CookinFlat6]

Agreed Roth, I think Ms set the tone for the modern era with the contractual number 1 driver position he had

Seb has this, he also has Newey designing the car round his skillset and like MS it has paid off

It's when some look beyond the team and start to deify the driver or compare them to past drivers in eras where to have the best car for more than one year was hard because of the nature of participation I.e. garagistas and fluid resource arrangements.

I think Merc are about to take the whole manufactured domination to a new level, let's see

[Roth]

I'm always hesitant to predict anything, but any kind if domination can't be good, even if it's not RB.

Vettels's success always gives his fans the advantge of pointing to his crowns and saying "Suck on that." It's the ultimate defence. Had it been Alonso or Hamilton in the same position the exact same results would have been more accepting. You'd still be bored by it mind. The trouble is I can't tell whether Vettel's naysyers are few and vocal or whether it's an underlying feeling that his success has been all too easily earned and sticks in people's throats that he's compared to Senna or Fangio. From the people I know it is interesting that it's those who work in IT and such, the facts and figures folk, who have no problems with him. I'm not one of them and I think he's a knob.

For some reason though his success seems less sinsiter than MS; like he's a little boy that's gotten caught up in the big boys' schemes. There's a touch of the Joffrey's about him.

[CookinFlat6]

The trouble is I can't tell whether Vettel's naysyers are few and vocal or whether it's an underlying feeling that his success has been all too easily earned and sticks in people's throats that he's compared to Senna or Fangio. From the people I know it is interesting that it's those who work in IT and such, the facts and figures folk, who have no problems with him. I'm not one of them and I think he's a knob.

The facts are that Seb is booed on seperate continents, therefore the general consensus is unprecedented, even compared to MS. The paying audience do not feel that they are in the presence of a sporting great. Paying audiences are not blind, they can see Webbers mysterious handicaps and RBRs arrogant 'interpretation of the spirit of the rules'
Also team bossese have voted for a driver who finished behind Seb at least twice, further reinforcing the impression that Sebs results are mainly down to the car

This year he has proven himself a knob with his handing of multi 21, and confirmed his favoured status by allowing Webber to match him on the only occasions Webber had a fair shot

However the exhibition of the true superiority of his car over others at Singapore is irreversible, and it has become clear that his fans are mainly nerd type stats and result orientated mups.
Yes the media and F1 establishment hail him a great, but they would have to if they want to keep the F1 show profitable and keep the audience engaged

Next year will be interesting