FORUMula1.com - F1 Forum

[mnmracer]

Double standards?

You admit setting out to bait others, yet declare others incapable of intelligent and morally acceptable behaviour

Can you see the double standard there or not? (dont change the subject or get abusive, simple yes no answer will suffice)

You might want to look up the definition of double standard there.

If I had said at any point that showing people a mirror was morally wrong, and then did it myself and considered it ok, that is a double standard.
However, I never condemned showing a mirror to confront people with their own behavior.

[What's Burning?]

Mooooo.

[CookinFlat6]

Ah yes, the good old
'conveniently ignore evidence and questions about my own double standards and continue to accuse others instead, without a shred of evidence'

[CookinFlat6]

Just to be clear for the slower readers;

baiting = morally unacceptable, according to rules, (like bullying)

Booing = morally unacceptable according to mnm, (like bullying)

mnm condemns booing

mnm enjoys baiting

double standard alert

[CookinFlat6]

Dear Seb, I wrote you but you still ain't calling
I left my cell, my pager, and my home phone at the bottom
I sent two letters back in autumn, you must not-a got 'em
There probably was a problem at the post office or something
Sometimes I scribble addresses too sloppy when I jot 'em
but anyways; f*** it, what's been up? Man how's your daughter?
My girlfriend's pregnant too, I'm bout to be a father
If I have a daughter, guess what I'ma call her?
I'ma name her Webber
I read about your Uncle Bernie too, I'm sorry
I had a friend kill himself over some bitch who didn't want him
I know you probably hear this everyday, but I'm your biggest fan
I even got the underground s*** that you did with flexiwings
I got a room full of your posters and your pictures man
I like the s*** you did with Traction too, that s*** was fat
Anyways, I hope you get this man, hit me back,
just to chat, truly yours, your biggest fan
This is Stan

[youtube]mEpaSx9oaew[/youtube]

[mnmracer]

Ah yes, the good old
'conveniently ignore evidence and questions about my own double standards and continue to accuse others instead, without a shred of evidence'

'without a shred of evidence' applies to one person and one person only here.
you have failed to provide one single piece of evidence that I have at any point condemned baiting.

[LRW]

Dear Seb, I wrote you but you still ain't calling
I left my cell, my pager, and my home phone at the bottom......

That whole post made me chuckle out loud, and get stared at by my work colleagues.

[racechick]

Was wetting myself at that song

[CookinFlat6]

Dear Mister-I'm-Too-Good-To-Call-Or-Write-My-Fans,
this'll be the last package I ever send your bottom
It's been six months and still no word - I don't deserve it?
I know you got my last two letters;
I wrote the addresses on 'em perfect
So this is my cassette I'm sending you, I hope you hear it
I'm in the car right now, I'm doing 90 on the freeway
Hey Seb, I drank a fifth of vodka, you dare me to drive?
You know the song by Phil Collins, "In the Air of the Night"
about that guy who coulda saved that other guy from drowning
but didn't, then Phil saw it all, then at a show he found him?
That's kinda how this is, you coulda rescued me from forumers
Now it's too late - I'm on a 1000 downers now, I'm drowsy
and all I wanted was a lousy finger or a call
I hope you know I ripped all of your pictures off the wall
I love you Seb, we coulda been together, think about it
You ruined it now, I hope you can't sleep and you dream about it
And when you dream I hope you can't sleep and you SCREAM about it
I hope your conscience EATS AT YOU and you can't BREATHE without me

[sagi58]

[Hammer278]

Dear Mister-I'm-Too-Good-To-Call-Or-Write-My-Fans,
this'll be the last package I ever send your bottom
It's been six months and still no word - I don't deserve it?
I know you got my last two letters;
I wrote the addresses on 'em perfect
So this is my cassette I'm sending you, I hope you hear it
I'm in the car right now, I'm doing 90 on the freeway
Hey Seb, I drank a fifth of vodka, you dare me to drive?
You know the song by Phil Collins, "In the Air of the Night"
about that guy who coulda saved that other guy from drowning
but didn't, then Phil saw it all, then at a show he found him?
That's kinda how this is, you coulda rescued me from forumers
Now it's too late - I'm on a 1000 downers now, I'm drowsy
and all I wanted was a lousy finger or a call
I hope you know I ripped all of your pictures off the wall
I love you Seb, we coulda been together, think about it
You ruined it now, I hope you can't sleep and you dream about it
And when you dream I hope you can't sleep and you SCREAM about it
I hope your conscience EATS AT YOU and you can't BREATHE without me

Brilliant. A cinch to win the next round of forumula article-writing competition!

Scenario 1: Two drivers told to HOLD positions and save engines till the end, no more racing, no more threats, save the 1-2. Driver 1 ignores the call and steals the win which Driver 2 had worked for the entire weekend.

Scenario 2: Two drivers racing each other with threats all around them and the results are far from set in stone. Both cars have everything to gain, Driver 2 told to move over for Driver 1....now, Driver 2 had also worked his ar$e of to get himself ahead of Driver 1 through merit, and this time Driver 2 ignores the call and continues what should be natural in this case - racing his teammate. I see no one stealing achievements of another here, no one betraying the trust of his teammate, no one being a right pr!ck given no.1 preference by the team and still ignoring them by backstabbing a teammate who's guard/engines turned down.

If you can't see why Scenario 1 is completely despicable compared to Scenario 2........like I said, stick to numbers. Thinking qualitatively is just not for you.

So you are saying Vettel did not have everything to gain?
You are saying Vettel did not work his arse to get himself ahead of Webber through merit?
Are you saying it should not be natural for Vettel to race his team mate?

Oh wait, you are still spreading the lie that Vettel didn't have his engine turned down.
Nevermind, I see the usual flaw in your reasoning

As far as the team was concerned, the race was over in Malaysia since they were achieving the maximum and Webber had beaten Vettel on merit. In Suzuka, Massa was beating Alonso up till that point and in this case Massa was not willing to give up his position since he had worked for it, if Alonso had to gain or not it is only right to WORK for it on track.

Vettel could've worked his ar$e off to get ahead of Webber but still couldn't up to the point the team told both to stop racing, and Vettel went ahead and stole the position like a lil b!tch.

It is not natural for Vettel to race his teammate who didn't know there was a race on his hands since their employer had given clear orders. In Suzuka, the orders were as clear, Massa ignored his employer but did not steal anything from his teammate since he had put in the effort to get to that position. Are you so daft that you don't see the difference in the two cases? If Ferrari had told Massa and Alonso to not race, and Alonso went ahead and passed Massa, THEN you have a right to open this thread and whine like a lil Vettel.

You're comparing apples and oranges here....like I said, stick to numbers. Please.

[zurich_allan]

his engine had been turned down and Vettel's hadn't been

Please, please inform yourself.
Of the other retro-actively history rewriting people here, I expect zero educated response, but please do yourself a favor and drop this myth that Vettel had not turned down his engine. It was busted long long ago.

Christian Horner @ BBC F1 said: ”they were both on the same engine mode”, and a Red Bull spokesperson @ The Daily Mail said: “Seb’s engine was turned down”.

In other words - nothing is black or white when it comes to these team order / disobeying issues. You cannot compare the incomparable - and that is exactly the case here.

In all fairness, it was a bit of baiting. But it was interesting to see how simplistic and hypocritical people are here. Malaysia: just black-and-white. If you ignore team orders, you are arrogant and consider yourself bigger than the team. Now, wow, all of a sudden there is a thing such as context . Just sadly funny to see how people care only about their agenda and are willing to change the standards to fit it.

Regardless of the engine mode (I don't know if I believe that or not, but again it's not the main issue so doesn't really matter), it was a 'surprise' attack if you like. That much cannot be disputed, again, the main issue that I highlighted was an awareness of what was coming - Massa had it, Webber didn't. Given that the team orders themselves are on record, that much cannot be disputed. There is nothing hypocritical or simplistic about it - I have ALWAYS maintained that context is important, whether in this issue or any other dispute / disagreement between ANY team members or regarding ANY team orders. I certainly have no agenda whatsoever except to give a completely unbiased opinion of how I see things taking into account all relevant factors. Again, these incidents are not comparable.

One thing I will say, is that the ruthlessness Vettel has certainly isn't isolated to him. Schumacher had similar traits, as did both Senna and Prost, Piquet Snr too. There may have been similar calls / incidents in the past similar to this that we aren't aware of as team radio broadcast and the vast insider media coverage, social media etc. hasn't been around that long, even though the chances are that such orders, disagreements etc. were.

Again, I like Vettel, he has a champions attitude, a winners attitude. At the same time though, there is often an aspect to that type of personality that in the heat of battle goes over the line of fairness / natural justice. It happened with ALL of the other names I mentioned, and it DID happen to Vettel, in the episode in question.

What you need to understand is that just because Vettel was in the wrong (which he was) in an incident or two, and others recognise it, does NOT mean that we all hate him. I like him, I just recognise that people are not as one dimensional or easy to pigeon hole as that.

[mnmracer]

What you need to understand is that just because Vettel was in the wrong (which he was) in an incident or two, and others recognise it, does NOT mean that we all hate him. I like him, I just recognise that people are not as one dimensional or easy to pigeon hole as that...

This is not about re-opening the discussion of Malaysia.

People were very clear in "ignoring team orders is wrong" (and variations of that), unwilling to accept any of context. Unwilling to accept the context of previously ignored team orders. Unwilling to accept the context of Vettel being told in lap 23 that he would be allowed to challenge Webber later. Unwilling to accept the context that Mark Webber can no longer claim to be surprised after turn 3.

No, it was very black-and-white in Malaysia: ignoring team orders is arrogant/evil.
I find it telling that now all of a sudden people who completely disregarded any context, are now the first to cry for context.
My hypothesis proved itself.

[racechick]

But the fact that the context of the two situations is so very different, is the reason people come to differing conclusions about the incidents. You can't just disregard the circumstances around which people form their opinions.

[Nin-Chin]

Don't know why people are getting abit over defensive over their views, its a forum at the end the day, to express opinion, no need to get worked over it.

mnmracer especially